Parked on kerb outside Disabled persons house. Ticketed by Camera!!!

[Chancerz]

Hi Guy's

 

Was hoping someone could give a little advice.

 

My Partner and i took my disabled grandmother food shopping and were dropping her home.

(She lives on a busy main road (main bus route) which recently has had CCTV and double yellow lines put outside her house and the nearby shops.)

 

My grandmother cannot walk unaided and therefore when i pick her up or drop her off

i usually park outside her house and mount the kerb (two wheels).

 

This is for two reasons,

the first because this is the closest point to her front door and

 

secondly, due to it being a busy bus route i do not want to obstruct the traffic and buses as this would be unsafe.

 

I should also add that everyone on this road parks their cars on the pavement everyday

and have been doing so for over 30 years.

 

We received the PCN through the post and

 

my wife appealed attaching my grandmothers disabled badge and a proof of address in the form of a utility bill.

 

The appeal was rejected and we were given the option of a further appeal to an independent adjudicator

which my wife did again as she is the registered owner of the vehicle.

 

We received a letter on 19th March stating that our appeal would be heard on Monday 14th April

and that any additional evidence should be received by Tuesday 8th April.

 

Today we received a 25 page double sided document from the council stating their case which included pictures and the Legal Acts we had broken.

They also stated that what my wife said was not as it seems. The letter also included a DVD of the incident.

 

My wife in her letter stated that the reason we parked on the kerb is because of my grandmothers disability

and that she requires a wheelchair and that because she is pregnant

she could not unload the wheelchair etc.

 

The fact is that my wife had confused this with another time we took my nan shopping

(as i said we have parked here many times before with no problem).

 

The DVD does not show me escorting my nan to her house (she can walk short distances aided hence the reason for parking so close to her house)

or unloading the bulk of the shopping.

 

It just shows me getting the last of the shopping from the rear seats of the car.

 

Also in the 25 page letter they state that the fine is £110?!

 

Is this right?

 

we appealed well within the two weeks!

 

My understanding was that if you are appealing the fine stays at the reduced £50?

 

What should i do now?

 

Should i write to the adjudicator explaining what i have above

and ask for the council to provide the full video evidence?

 

I have time to compile something this weekend so some help would be greatly appreciated.

[dx100uk]

so how recent were the lines and cctv installed?

 

dx

[Chancerz]

Dx,

 

Thanks for the response

 

Not exactly sure regarding yellow lines maybe 2 years.

 

I went away for around 18 months and

 

when I returned they were there!

 

No reason for them to be there.

 

They stop outside my grandmothers house and do not continue down the rest of the road.

 

I don't understand their justification for putting double yellow's down that road

it makes no sense as there have never been any problems, accidents or fatalities with people parking on the kerb.

 

As i mentioned people have been doing this for over 30 years

 

so buses and cars can get an easier passage.

 

the pavement is also wide enough to accommodate this!!

 

Beats me!!

[Chancerz]

I should also state that the contravention is for parking on the kerb and not for parking on the double yellow lines (which i was also on). Double Penalty!!!

[Michael Browne]

Also in the 25 page letter they state that the fine is £110?!

 

Is this right?

 

we appealed well within the two weeks!

 

My understanding was that if you are appealing the fine stays at the reduced £50?

 

.

No, once you appeal to adjudication, the full penalty is due.

 

Whereabouts in the country is this, if it's London, pavement parking has been an banned for some years.

 

I can appreciate it's galling, since on DYL's there are exemptions which allow both unloading and alighting as well as 3hr parking with a BB (assuming there are no kerb blips prohibiting loading/unloading), so you could park legally on the road.

 

Adjudicators can only rule on law ie did the alleged contravention take place and clearly it did.. They cannot take mitigating circumstances into account.

 

The only good news is that should the adjudicator disalow the appeal you will still owe £110

[Chancerz]

Wow!

 

I'm surprised... I haven't had a parking ticket for a while now but from what i remember and from the previous cases i've had, if you appeal, the fine it stays at the reduced rate.

 

Gutted!!

 

Seems like i may have lost this one.

 

Being honest i'm very angered by this, the council should use their discretion. What is happening to this country!!!??

[king12345]

Bring your grandmother to the hearing as a witness.

Also produce all evidence of her disability, even though the blue badge is confirmation that one cannot walk long distance.

Councils are merciless and I've never heard of a ticket being cancelled by them.

Good luck

[Michael Browne]

 

I'm surprised... I haven't had a parking ticket for a while now but from what i remember and from the previous cases i've had, if you appeal, the fine it stays at the reduced rate.

 

You made representations, which were rejected. At that point most councils will re-offer the discount. If you choose to appeal to the adjudicator, the full penalty comes into play

 

 

Seems like i may have lost this one.

 

Probably, yes. But you now have nothing to lose, so you might as well give it a go. Is it a personal hearing?

[Chancerz]

No it's a case of the adjudicator reviewing the evidence and reaching a decision...

[Michael Browne]

Pity, personal hearings are always better, since councils do not attend, and you have the chance to come across as sincere and honest etc..

 

Never mind, give it your best shot, include all your mitigating factors, but without rancour or ranting.

[Conniff]

I trust you mean your wife is pregnant and not your nan, make that clear if you have said it in one sentence as in your first post.

[Chancerz]

Wife is pregnant not Nan... Will amend! Cheers...

 

Okay... so from the sounds of it i should just put something in writing to the adjudicator and hope for the best?!

 

Does it carry no weight if everybody else parks on the pavement? If i took pics and submitted them would that help or would it cause more grief for those that get away with it by the turds fining them too?

[Conniff]

I think if you add that everyone parks like it, you are trying to justify your wrongdoing, if in fact you were wrong.

 

 

As they say, just because everyone does it, doesn't make it ok for you to do.

 

 

Hang on until tomorrow when there will be more people about to advise.

[Michael Browne]

Does it carry no weight if everybody else parks on the pavement?

 

In theory no, since it's mitgation. But yes include, especially if it's been the custom for a long period without enforcement, that creates a legitimate expectation that the council accepts pavement parking is desirable in this location, plus by not parking in line with others you would create an unnecessary obstruction on a busy road, bus route etc

 

If i took pics and submitted them would that help

 

Yep, why not.

[Chancerz]

Thanks guy's...

 

All arguments make sense... It just boil's down to whether the adjudicator sees sense and uses his/her discretion? Depends who they are paid by i guess... public purse?!!

Edited April 4, 2014 by Conniff
Corrected a typo.

[Michael Browne]

. It just boil's down to wether the adjudicator sees sense and uses his/her discretion?

As I said they don't have discretion, the council did, but chose not to use it (they very rarely do). The best that you can hope for is that the adjudicator recommends that the council re-visit their decision, but there's no compulsion for the council to do so.

Depends who they are paid by i guess... public purse?!!

It's something like 50p from every pcn issued and councils pay £45 or so for every one that goes to adjudication

[Jamberson]

Councils are merciless and I've never heard of a ticket being cancelled by them.

 

Let's not be silly about this. Thousands upon thousands of PCNs have been cancelled by local authorities every month.

[Chancerz]

My gut feeling is that because Hounslow council have gone to so much trouble in compiling the paperwork and sending a DVD they will not let this one go regardless of whether my grandmother is disabled or not.

 

They must have seen that i escorted her into her house earlier in the video.

 

However i'm still surprised that i will have to pay £110!! Well, at least sending the case to the adjudicator has cost them £45 and more money / man power compiling the paperwork and DVD.

[Jamberson]

They probably won't "let it go" in the sense of giving up the case now, but the outcome is now in the hands of the adjudicator to decide what's correct.

 

You may have an angle to argue on the Disability Discrimination Act, although it's a bit of a stretch. Nontheless if you can argue that a disabled person could only have been helped out of the vehicle if the wheels were on the pavement, then that could be interpreted as coming under the DDA's provisions.

 

I presume you've already submitted your paperwork, so it is late to introduce this argument, but it wouldn't hurt raising it at the hearing. If the adjudicator sees it that way, then it follows that he/she could be in breach of the Act too, if they refuse your case, so it might influence them.

 

On the subject of the amount owing, you are right to say the charge is held if you appeal. But when your appeal is rejected, you then have to choose whether to pay then, or fight on - and it's that decision not to pay at that point which means the discount is forfeited. The alternative would be to pay it at that stage.

[2ltr16valve]

Not really to do directly with your case.

But my brother is disabled (as am I, both copd)

He had a sudden shortness of breath and had to pull over to take medicine (nebuliser). He pulled

Half on the curb and half In the road on double yellow lines. So as not to block the busses or flow of traffic as the road isn't wide enough to park in the road fully.

He was ticketed in the same way you have been. For pavement parking.

Now he stupidness is. Had he parked in the road fully and used his badge the council admit he would not have been ticketed ! As traffic could have passed on an alternate basis.

 

Stupid !

[Chancerz]

I only received Hounslow council's evidence on Friday. I am going to compile something this weekend as my deadline is Tuesday 8th April.

 

I will look at mentioning something about the Disability Act as i have nothing to lose as such!

 

Should i also request for the council to provide the full footage showing my Grandmother being escorted in? (personally i don't think they have it or they would have shown it, however they could be conveniently leaving that part out)

 

All they have shown is my car parked on the pavement with hazard lights on, drivers side rear door open, me coming out of the house and taking out the last of the shopping off the back seat and taking it in the house. The camera then moves away. I was literally parked for less than 5 mins. What ever happened to the 5 min rule!!

[Jamberson]

The Disability Discrimination Act requires the council to make "reasonable adjustments" so that disabled people may have use of facilities and so on - such as putting ramps next to steps, providing audio versions of printed documents and so on.

 

It also includes providing disabled parking close to shops. It could be argued that allowing a case like this would also constitute a reasonable adjustment so that a disabled person could go shopping and return home as normal. If that were the argument put forward, then there is a legal case for the council to answer, and it won't look that good on them.

 

As I said, it's a bit of a wide interpretation of the Act, but a line of argument which might help.

[Chancerz]

Jamberson thanks, as usual you always come through with the bullets!!

 

[king12345]

Let's not be silly about this. Thousands upon thousands of PCNs have been cancelled by local authorities every month.

Ahahahahahahah!

What council do you work for?

Especially Hounslow council never ever cancel pcn at appeal stage.

Just have a wonder on pepipoo and you will see how many drivers have been issued pcn incorrectly and had appeal refused, then won at the adjudication stage.

A note for the op: ask Hounslow council for proof that the camera is an approved device.

They will send you an internet link which will take you to a confusing page with one approved device listed for Hounslow.

That's the approval of their control room; no camera in Hounslow is an approved device!

This was the case up to end of 2012 (last ticket I got), they might have had other cameras approved now but I strongly believe not.

Also once you take them to the adjudicator, you will receive their evidence in full.

check the signatures of the camera operator witness statement and the person rejecting the appeal: they will probably match with different job titles, the former being a camera operator, the latter a traffic enforcement manager.

Ever seen a manager working as a camera operator?!?!

Adjudicator won't be impressed.

Further more, the fact that they haven't given you the opportunity to pay the pcn at the reduced rate after the appeal decision is procedural impropriety.

They haven't got a clue!

That's Hounslow for you!

[Chancerz]

ok, so having gone through the paperwork again after King's post there is a page that states the following.

 

I, [Name] am an authorised officer of Hounslow Borough Council.

 

This statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief. I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable for prosecution if i have wilfully stated anything that i know to be false or do not believe to be true.

 

I produce in evidence in the above case stills from video/recording fem the video. I certify that these were produced from a video recording made by CCTV Camera ( camera number, location and ID provided) on 23/01/2014.

 

I further certify:

 

1. These was/were produced in accordance with the code of practice for operation of CCTV Enforcement Cameras;

2.That the monitoring and recording equipment used at the location and time specified is an approved device under Article 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking contraventions (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2007

3. That, to the best of my knowledge and belief, all conditions sub jest to which approval was given was satisfied

 

Signed

Business Processing Manager

 

Now, this same person is also Assistant Head of Parking Management as on the opening page they have signed their name as such! So it seems they have two roles?!

 

I can't seem to find a name for the camera operator in the evidence provided, i've looked through all the case notes but there doesn't seem to be one there.