Living Abroad: Having CCJ set aside with UK asset

[Rangers123]

Hi all.

 

I'm in a mess. I've been living in the US for almost 7 years now. Had debt in the UK when I left, young and careless. I have no plans to return to the UK as I'm a US citizen now and well settled here.

 

I co-own a house in the UK with 3 siblings, the 4 of us own a quarter each. It's a family house we inherited and they have no interest in ever selling it. Obviously, my share is just a quarter, 25%.

 

I have 3 separate debts, £2082, £8513 and £1182. The CCJs were entered on 14/02/14, 06/12/13 and 20/12/12 respectively. They have also applied for a charging order against the property I partially own.

 

My questions are:

 

Firstly, can I apply to have these CCJs set aside as I have been a permanent resident of the US for the past 7 years. I've only just become aware of these judgments after checking my credit report online. When I left the UK I did inform my financial institutions (Egg and HSBC) that I was moving to the US.

 

Could they force the house to be sold, even though I only own a small share of the property? There is no mortgage on it. Two relatives live in the house that will not be moving for a very long time.

 

I also believe that the two most recent CCJs must have been statute barred as at that point I'd been in the States over 6 & half years and have had no contact and made no payments since I've lived here.

 

What is the best course of action. I've searched and searched and have not been able to find anyone in a similar situation, with a small share of an asset that has no hope of being sold anytime soon.

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes you can apply for the set asides, but you would need to get a UK Solicitors or a representative to act for you if there is a hearing. You can do so on the basis that you did inform the original creditors you had moved to the US and therefore they could not have applied for a court claim in the UK involving debts under the consumer credit act.

 

They won't be able to force the sale of the house, but any Solicitors dealing with the sale in the future may feel they are required to pay the judgements or at least advise the claimants.

 

Statute barring runs from the date of default, last payment or written admission of owing the debts.

 

http://www.trustonline.org.uk/understand-judgments-fines/set-aside-a-judgment/

[Rangers123]

Thanks. Would I have to appoint a UK solicitor before I file to ask to have the CCJs set aside. Would I mention on the form that I'm applying because I live abroad and never received any notice AND I believe that they're statute barred? Would I receive details of the hearing to my US address or email so that I could appoint a solicitor?

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks. Would I have to appoint a UK solicitor before I file to ask to have the CCJs set aside. Would I mention on the form that I'm applying because I live abroad and never received any notice AND I believe that they're statute barred? Would I receive details of the hearing to my US address or email so that I could appoint a solicitor?

 

You need to make enquiries with a UK Solicitors about this. They will need all the info and they will know what to do.

 

Without full details of the debts and the judgement, it is not possible to advise you further on this. You can post to the CAG legal section and you may get a bit more advice from those legally knowledgeable, but they will be hampered by not having the information they would need.

[ozzyboy]

You shouldn't need to contact a UK solicitor just yet.

 

Contact the UK Courts service and request a copy of form N244 which is the first step in getting the CCJs set aside. You'll need to complete a separate form for each CCJ but other than the case reference, all the details you will need to enter will be pretty much the same.

 

Read this

 

Do it ASAP and stress the point that your tardiness in responding to the judgements is due to the fact that you have only just learned of their existence.

 

I assume your last UK address is not the same as the property on which there is a CA? If so, you'll need to explain why you did not receive any court documents sent to that address.

 

When you return the forms, make sure you have attached as much supporting evidence as possible including copies of all correspondence sent to your creditors informing them that you were moving overseas, a copy of your US residency visa and a few utility bills to substantiate your claim that you have been living in the US for 7 years. What would be a knock-out blow would be any letters / statements they have sent to you in the USA!

 

Not sure what the filing fee is these days but certainly a lot less than an hour or two of a solicitor's time!

 

Remember that you can always talk to the UK court officers themselves for advice...

 

EDIT: Just noticed your comments about these CCJs being stat barred.

 

Debts such as yours will indeed be stat barred after 6 years.

 

However, whilst a CCJ will eventually drop off your credit report, it can never be stat barred - it will just become increasingly harder for a creditor to act upon the longer they leave it to the point that is effectively meaningless. That said, if they have already acted upon the CCJ to obtain a CA, that point is moot.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ozzyboy
Added info.

[unclebulgaria67]

What would be a knock-out blow would be any letters / statements they have sent to you in the USA!

 

 

My experience with a relative with debts who went abroad, is that it appears creditors and DCA's know that they should not admit to knowing a debtor is abroad. They advised several creditors they had moved abroad, who refused to send any statements outside the UK and would not even note they were abroad. Then later when well known DCA's got involved, they also refused to acknowledge they were abroad, even when recorded delivery letters were sent to them. It was only a year or so after following a complaint that they found copies of letters with the foreign address, that they stopped chasing the debts, with no enforcement.

 

I am guessing that a debt for a person gone abroad, is worth less than for one where the debtor is still in the UK.

[ozzyboy]

 

I am guessing that a debt for a person gone abroad, is worth less than for one where the debtor is still in the UK.

 

A subtle change to the wording of your post and you've hit the nail on the head as far as DCAs are concerned.

 

Amend "worth less" to "worthless" and lose the rest of the sentence!

 

I'm surprised that your relative's banks and CC statements were not sent to an overseas address. The only one of our creditors who didn't change our details was Egg but that seemed to be because it was a web based service and their system didn't accept any change of address for non-UK details.

[Rangers123]

I have sent two N244's to Northampton Bulk Processing with plenty of evidence that I have not been resident in the UK for almost 7 years and also that I believe any alleged debt would be statute barred because I have not had any contact with any alleged creditors or made payment towards any alleged debt since I have left the UK.

[ozzyboy]

Well done and good luck...please keep us up to date with any developments.

[Rangers123]

UPDATE: The judge has said I must attend in person or appoint a solicitor otherwise the set aside will automatically be thrown out. So I now face two options. Fly back myself for around £842 plus car rental etc or appoint a solicitor, the one quote I've had so far is for £1000. Am I better off going with a solicitors?

[unclebulgaria67]

Well I did say this might be the case. I think a Solicitors would be better placed, as long as there is a cap to the total cost. You may get a Solicitor to do this for a fixed priced and if this is so, it may be cheaper than flying back. What if you come back and are messed around. Could end up being more expensive than a Solicitors.

[Rangers123]

I think you are probably right. One solicitor told me they couldn't do it within the timeframe but recommended I try a firm of advocates, as they would be much cheaper? I've not heard about advocates before.

[steampowered]

Advocates are in Scotland. If this is in England presumably he means a direct access barrister. This is the kind of case where using a barrister direct may be cheaper than using a solicitor ... as the case is straightforward and all you really need is help pulling together a witness statement and representation at the hearing.

 

You need to think ahead. If you win the set aside hearing(s), you will need to file a Defence for each case and there will then be hearings booked to decide on whether you owe the money in each case. You won't recover your legal costs even if successful, so this could get expensive for you very quickly. If your UK credit report is not causing you a problem personally I'd be tempted to let sleeping dogs lie.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it may be difficult for them to obtain an order for sale if others are living in the property and if you only have a minority interest. It is much easier to get a charging order than an order for sale.

[ozzyboy]

 

You need to think ahead. If you win the set aside hearing(s), you will need to file a Defence for each case and there will then be hearings booked to decide on whether you owe the money in each case.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if a set aside is granted on the grounds that the CCJ was improperly made against an overeseas resident who had already left the UK at the time of the original judgement, will this not preclude any further attempts to enforce judgement in a UK County Court for the very same reason?

[steampowered]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if a set aside is granted on the grounds that the CCJ was improperly made against an overeseas resident who had already left the UK at the time of the original judgement, will this not preclude any further attempts to enforce judgement in a UK County Court for the very same reason?

 

A set aside would preclude any attempts to enforce the judgment. But it would not preclude further attempts to obtain a new judgment.

 

If a set aside was granted, the most likely outcome is that as part of the set aside order you would be required to file a Defence within a specified period of time. The case would then continue as a standard defended case and would be booked for a hearing.

 

Unfortunately it is likely that the loan agreements will all contain jurisdiction clauses granting the creditor the ability to sue you in England regardless of whether you live there or not. It is possible that after a set aside is granted the creditor would simply back off because you live abroad, but as the creditors have identified that you own property in the UK I think this is unlikely.

[ozzyboy]

Unfortunately it is likely that the loan agreements will all contain jurisdiction clauses granting the creditor the ability to sue you in England regardless of whether you live there or not.

 

Although the OP has not stated it, I am assuming that the debts are standard consumer credit debts and would therefore be covered by the CCA which specifically states that only the UK County Court will have jurisdiction.

 

Since a valid CCJ cannot be made against a UK debtor who is living in the USA sueing the OP in a UK court would seem to be pointless, dead end route for any creditor as they would be unable to enforce any judgement in their favour.

 

I agree that the fact that there is property in the UK confuses the matter.

[steampowered]

Since a valid CCJ cannot be made against a UK debtor who is living in the USA sueing the OP in a UK court would seem to be pointless, dead end route for any creditor as they would be unable to enforce any judgement in their favour.

 

I agree that the fact that there is property in the UK confuses the matter.

 

You can have a valid CCJ against anyone in the world through the UK courts. The UK courts deal with international disputes involving foreign individuals and companies on a regular basis (e.g. the recent Russian oligarch litigation - Berevosky v Abramovich). The only requirement is that the UK court has jurisdiction ... normally through a contract stating that the UK courts will have jurisdiction as in this case.

 

The creditor could in theory register and enforce that judgment in the United States, though this can be expensive. In this case the creditor doesn't have that problem because they can enforce through a charging order against the op's UK property.

[ozzyboy]

You can have a valid CCJ against anyone in the world through the UK courts.

 

Sorry - but that sounds like a contradiction of Practice Direction 7C which states;

 

Claims which may not be issued through the Centre

 

2.1 The Centre will not issue any claim form which is to be issued in the High Court.

2.2 The Centre will only issue a claim form if the claim is for a specified sum of money less than £100,000.

2.3 The Centre will not issue any of the following types of claim –

(1) a claim against more than two defendants;

(2) a claim against two defendants where a different sum is claimed against each of them;

(3) a claim against the Crown;

(4) a claim for an amount in a foreign currency;

(5) a claim where either party is known to be a child or protected party within Part 21;

(6) a claim where the claimant is a legally assisted person within the meaning of the Legal Aid Act 1988;

(7) a claim where the claimant’s address for service as it appears on the claim form is not in the United Kingdom;

(7A) a claim where the defendant's address for service as it appears on the claim form is not in England and Wales;

(8) a claim which is to be issued under Part 8.

I agree that if a CCJ is already in existence it may be (theoretically) enforced anywhere in the world that has a recipocal agreement with the UK but getting a CCJ against a foreign resident...I think not.

 

The whole point of a County Court hearing is that it is held in the court that is closest to the defendant's home address so that they may appear in person - hence the requirement that address for service of court documents is in the UK.

 

The case of Berevosky v Abramovich to which you refer was heard in the High Court, not the County Court, and the sums involed were in the region of a million times greater than the debts the OP discusses.

 

It would assist if we knew who the OP's creditors may be. If, as I suspect, they are credit card or other consumer debts then they can ONLY be dealt with by the County Court which has jurisdiction only within the UK.

[sequenci]

Were the creditors informed of the OP's overseas address, or were the claims filed at the last known address?

I doubt the earlier two CCJs will be granted a set aside as they are unlikely to meet the promptness test.

[steampowered]

PD 7C only concerns the Production Centre. This is a bulk service used by DCAs to issue large numbers of claims. A claim against a Defendant who is outside the UK can't be issued through the Production Centre or through MCOL, but can instead be issued the old fashioned way through Part 6.

 

The rules on service for a Defendant who is abroad are in Part 6 and PD 6B. Basically, a Defendant who is abroad gets more time to enter a Defence but otherwise the process is the same.

[Rangers123]

Hi all,

 

I recently found out about a CCJ obtained against me at Northampton by HL Solicitors for for Sigma SPV 1 Limited. I've lived in the US for years and only found out about this recently, I've never received anything about this alleged debt.

 

I filed a N244 application to set aside judgment at Northampton, saying I never received the claim as I live in the US, and that I believe I have a full defense in that the alleged debt would be statute barred. I've lived in the US for 7 years and haven't made any payment to any alleged debt in the UK since I've lived here.

 

It was transferred to a different court, where they were applying for a charging order against an interest in a property I own in the UK. The Judge who reviewed my application ordered that the application would be heard via telephone and that it was not to be enforced in the interim.

 

So, how do I do this?

[AndyOrch]

The court will provide details of when the teleconference will happen...you give evidence over the phone...hopefully it will be thrown out of court.

 

Andy

[Rangers123]

I've been given a a time and date and the Claimant has been ordered to make the telephone arrangements. HL contacted me today asking for my phone number and stating that the client has reverted to the original lender for further information. Doesn't sound like they have any documents.

[AndyOrch]

If you are speaking direct to the claimant just advise them that the set a side will happen as its statute barred...did they want to agree by consent to the set a side and avoid any further costs?

[Rangers123]

I'm only speaking to the claimant's solicitors. Can I ask them if they'd like to agree by consent? Does it need to be a formal letter?

 

I'm looking for advice as to what I should give as my evidence at the telephone hearing. I do not have any evidence myself of the last payment, the credit agreement they're talking about, or anything. I have no paperwork at all. So not sure how to proceed when faced with the phone call which is rapidly approaching.