Bus lane PCN - York Council/Lendal Bridge **Appeal Upheld**

[nicolad]

Hi, I stumbled across this forum whilst researching ways to appeal the PCN I have just been served with.

 

As I understand, the Lendal Bridge bus lane fiasco is quite controversial (google brings up many irate articles).

 

I lived in York last year for a few months and throughout that time, the bridge was open to all vehicles.

 

On 9/9/13 however I was flat hunting in York as I'm planning to move back there and drove over the bridge unaware that

it is now a restricted route for buses/taxis only between 1030 and 1700.

The signs are poor - from the direction I took, I did not notice any new signage and

 

my research showed that there in fact are NO new signs (apparently to avoid planning applications) and the sign that was in place is small and on the pavement next to a bus stop.

 

I've found a photo that shows a double decker stopped at this bus stop would shadow the sign completely from drivers. In addition I did not notice any new relevant road markings.

 

Whilst on this forum I also found something to do with the wording of the PCN

- use of 'will' as opposed to 'may' in the following sentence:

 

'This Notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after the day of posting (as shown on the right) unless you can show that it was not'.

 

Have I a case to appeal?? Any advice welcome!!

 

Nicola

[sailor sam]

I am aware of this from the coach driver's forums. I understand it is being enforced by ANPR cameras.

 

Unfortunately its difficult to advise without seeing the signage. Just checked Google Street view and it's not up to date enough to show the changes which came in 27th August.

 

Can you provide any images?

[nicolad]

This is one I found on the Facebook group 'say no to Lendal Bridge close' - as you can see the bus destructs vision quite a bit but it would be impossible to prove a bus might have been there!

 

I've also read that in order to serve a PCN the council must also provide evidence of me driving past this sign - is this true? I've only been provided with photos of my car on the actual bridge which must be about 100-200 metres from this sign.

 

Thanks

Nicola

[sailor sam]

Sorry, too small. Could do with some of the signs at the start or the restriction and any of advanced signs prior to the restriction.

[renegadeimp]

 

 

[sailor sam]

Much better.

 

My opinion is that the first sign is confusing and in fact, contradictory. It appears top indicate that traffic can only turn right but yet there is s 'no right turn' sign above it. The second sign is inadequate by itself and surely is non-compliant anyway. There should be a 'all motor vehicles prohibited' with the times that the restriction is in force. And if there are no advanced signs, which way are you supposed to go to avoid the restriction?

 

Number of grounds for appeal in my opinion.

[nicolad]

Thank you renegadeimp for the photos!

 

Sailor sam, so the fact it says 'closed' as opposed to 'all motor vehicles prohibited' or buses only or whatever is something to use? Apparently there is a temporary sign on one road prior to this but I came from a different direction, I'm going to go check it out in the next couple of days just to clarify though. Thank you for your help so far!

[sailor sam]

Thank you renegadeimp for the photos!

 

Sailor sam, so the fact it says 'closed' as opposed to 'all motor vehicles prohibited' or buses only or whatever is something to use? Apparently there is a temporary sign on one road prior to this but I came from a different direction, I'm going to go check it out in the next couple of days just to clarify though. Thank you for your help so far!

 

AFAIK the yellow part of the sign isn't mandatory (i.e. prohibitory), it's 'advising' you that the bridge is physically closed (kind of sign for road works) but it apparently isn't. The sign they should use to restrict vehicle access is the one underneath (all motor vehicles prohibited) with an exemption plate (if any) plus a time plate showing any period that the restriction is in force (unless it is a 24 hour, 7 day a week restriction).

 

In addition, there should be advance warning signs on each approach road leading up to the restriction advising drivers of the alternative route.

 

The sign in the first image provided by renegadeimp is totally confusing and makes no sense at all in my opinion. It's telling you that no motor vehicles can turn left underneath a 'no right turn' sign!

[Lissadenton]

AFAIK the yellow part of the sign isn't mandatory (i.e. prohibitory), it's 'advising' you that the bridge is physically closed (kind of sign for road works) but it apparently isn't. The sign they should use to restrict vehicle access is the one underneath (all motor vehicles prohibited) with an exemption plate (if any) plus a time plate showing any period that the restriction is in force (unless it is a 24 hour, 7 day a week restriction).

 

In addition, there should be advance warning signs on each approach road leading up to the restriction advising drivers of the alternative route.

 

The sign in the first image provided by renegadeimp is totally confusing and makes no sense at all in my opinion. It's telling you that no motor vehicles can turn left underneath a 'no right turn' sign!

 

I do hope the OP comes back as the very same thing happened to us on Sept 8th. We are not from York. We were unaware that there was a change in the road structure.

 

We visit York every couple of months so the last visit will have been before the changes tooklace.

 

I don't feel like returning. York is an ancient place. It's very popular, there's people walking, all over over roads as well as footpaths so you really need to keep your eyes on jaywalking pedestrians.

 

I'm not even sure which one is lendal bridge but the time the offence happened was very busy and we were looking for a parking space as we had left my blue badge at home. I'm a permanent wheelchair user so have to try to be not too far away from main area .

 

Is it worth appealing?

 

We are not even sure from the photograph where the offence was committed.

 

It's been a very expensive day out!

[dcanavan]

spey a nice weekend in york, then came back to a pcn notice from these gangsters. I had no idea there were any restrictions in place, my video shows cars both in front and behind me, so they must be making a fortune.

 

I intend to appeal. The location says i was caught on lendal bridge bus lane, when i google map lendal bridge it shows the bridge as having an IRON wall yet the image they've given me is of a bridge with a MASONARY wall so heaven knows where they caught me but it wasn't lendal bridge.

 

anyway thats the last york sees of me untill i calm down. i will post the outcome of my appeal in case it is successful so others can try and stop this robbery

[Lissadenton]

Had our first appeal turned down. Now we have re appealed . The signs are a joke. The sign in st Leonard's place next to the theatre had a double decker tour bus at the side of it. The sign was totally obscured and anyone driving would not be able to see it. That's the last sign before the traffic lights /junction that leads to the bridge . There are no signs at the traffic lights.

 

Best to go to lendal bridge Facebook page. Lots on there.

[chrish28]

Had our first appeal turned down. Now we have re appealed . The signs are a joke. The sign in st Leonard's place next to the theatre had a double decker tour bus at the side of it. The sign was totally obscured and anyone driving would not be able to see it. That's the last sign before the traffic lights /junction that leads to the bridge . There are no signs at the traffic lights.

 

Best to go to lendal bridge Facebook page. Lots on there.

 

I have just drafted this and also submitted a epetition for people to sign

 

I understand that the bus lane is not enforceable as it does not have adequate signage to Diagram 959 at the start, in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulation and General Directions 2002. Bus lanes should be fully signed before and throughout their length. The misleading sign shown does not suggest that there is a bus lane. It is also placed in a position that can be obscured by an high sided vehicle, such as a BUS. The PCN I have received shows no markings on the road suggesting that it is anything but a road, THERE ARE NO BUS LANE MARKINGS. See the photo of the signage, there is NOTHING there, to suggest there is a bus lane.

[Lissadenton]

I know it's crazy isn't it. So crazy we drove down for another look. Where will we find this epetition.

 

Some poor women has just received 4 pcns for her one trip away.

[chrish28]

Petition to abolish Lendal Bridge bus lane can be found at epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/56674

[Lissadenton]

Yes, I've fallen foul of the 10 posts rule. There was a petition that closed end of sept with only 1200 names on it but I don't lknow how long it was open and the full effect of the bridge closure hadnt hit home yet.

 

Anyway I have emailed a link to friends.

[sailor sam]

I stand by my comments in post #8 on this. I think someone needs to appeal and take it all the way to an independent adjudicator to 'test' the legalities of the signage.

[chrish28]

Reply if 1000 signatures on this e-petition it may get discussed in parliament. See next

Edited November 8, 2013 by chrish28

[Surfer01]

There are a number of complaints on various caravan forums about this closure to buses only. People are visiting as tourists and seem to be either missing or misunderstanding the signs. Those that visited York previously are the ones that appear to be caught out the most.

[Lissadenton]

Yes, Ive seen those too. There's a lot more comments on facebooks

Say no to lendal bridge close page

 

There's still only 22 people signed the epetition.

 

Where are all the York people?

[chrish28]

Link to e-petition http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/56674

[hud]

I am at my wits end with this. I have just returned from a short family holiday to York. Whilst there we visited the retail park and I used my sat nav to do this as I am not that familiar with York. The sat nav took me over lendal bridge on the way and also on the way back. I saw no signs whatsoever to say that we could not use this route as the traffic was back to back all the way there and all the way back. All i could see was the traffic ahead and I followed. My husband drove our car and my daughter followed behind in her car as she needed to do as she did not have the sat nav. She didnt see any signs to say we could not use the route.

Now we have returned home, my daughter and myself have both received not just one, but TWO notices of driving in a bus lane and have been fined £60 for each offence = £120. Thats one on the way and one on the way back.

What should have been a little get away for the family is now costing us a fortune, money that we have not got, especially my daughter who has two small children and is hard up.

I am hoping that someone can help me with this and please tell me that we dont have to pay this fine.

[Surfer01]

Sadly a lot of visitors are being caught out as you are too busy trying to find your way around that makes it easy to miss the signs. At the moment I don't think there is much you can do about. Try and appeal one of the tickets each so you only have to pay once. Sorry cannot be more helpful than that.,

[hud]

Thankyou for your help. Its so annoying to be caught out like this. We never break the rules, we see many people who do, who seem to get away with it. But we don't and always do the right thing, it takes such a long time to earn that kind of money £240 which is what i will have to pay as my daughter doesnt have the money. I am so upset about this, especially with Chrismas coming.

[sailor sam]

If the signage is as what has been posted (obviously I can only go on that because I havn't seen the situ for myself), then in my opinion they are non-compliant. The signs that have been posted are miss-leading and un-clear.

 

It needs someone with the balls to take the case all the way to an adjudicator which is easy for me to say because it's not my money.

[hud]

Do you know the traffic was that bad I do not remember seeing any signs to say we could not go through. It took us almost an hour to get to the retail park which is 3.5 miles away from where i was staying. You would of thought that seeing as we were traveling at such a slow speed we would see some signs.