It's only about how the reader takes the email ?

[Pin Stripe]

Hi All,

 

first time poster, wanting some advice. My situation is that I'm a man who gets/got on well with a female colleague. We used to chat about hobbies/sport/kids, etc. One day we chatted about skiing, including a vaguely funny story she had about going down a red run. I emailed her afterwards, like this:

 

"Re: Random Friday stuff

Hi [her name],

I think I’ve found a couple pics of you snowboarding downthat red run:

then 2 pics, one of someone snowboarding down a near vertical mountain, and the other with them flat on their face, snowboard sticking up.

[my name]

 

 

she replied:

"Lol very good!!"

 

Fine. That was the end of that, just some silly Friday stuff.

Except that, some time later the HR Manager came to see me to tell me that my email had made her uncomfortable.

Why? "Because she didn't know what to reply to it."

 

I was told this isn't an official complaint, but it's to let me know that I "obviously" need to be more careful in future.

 

I queried whether there's anything wrong with the email and got this reply by email: "Just to clarify that at no time did I state that[name] had ever made a complaint against you but only that she had mentioned tome that receiving the email had made her feel uncomfortable. It is not about your actions or the contentof the email but how it had been received and perceived "

 

The 'non-complaint' was reported to my Boss and I think others know about it. I feel:

- embarrassed, that others think there must be more to it than this. There isn't as far as I know.

 

- stupid for not noticing any signs that she was uncomfortable (were there any?),

 

- disappointed that I've lost a work-friend because I think I have to be very careful about her in future - she used to come into my office to chat and I'm not sure I should allow her to any more ?

 

- angry that I've no right to reply, and that this feels unjust.

 

I emailed my work colleague, apologising that it had made her uncomfortable but asking her, if she felt able, to speak with me in future. I didn't get a reply, I was told the HR Manager advised her not to reply. Neither of us have made a move to talk to the other in the few days since.

 

I don't know anything about current HR thinking, but it seems to me it's not right to say it's not about the content, and only about the 'victims' perception. We're a large company and if this is the usual means of dealing with matters then how many times have people been falsely accused and told to be more careful, unjustly ? Why aren't people encouraged to resolve issues by talking to one another ?!?

 

Any thoughts / help ?

How would you approach putting this right ?

Is this normal HR thinking ?

 

Thank you

Pin Stripe

 

 

 

[Emmzzi]

Don't mix work and leisure and you'll have no issue. And no, you don't get to decide what makes other people uncomfortable. Get over it. You shouldn't have emailed either after the event - bit stalkery. Just leave her alone, eh?

[Pin Stripe]

Thanks for your reply Emmzzi.

Your reply has the benefit of being clear-cut, but many of us have made a number of friends over the years from work, and it would be a shame to cut out all the chat. I appreciate 'just leave her alone' and am doing so, but that leaves me disappointed and feeling aggrieved. Perhaps you're right: get over it. But is there anything else I can usefully do ?

 

My email to my colleague after the event said this (again copied in, word for word):

"Hi [name], I’m sorry the email I sent on 9thAugust made you uncomfortable. I’m glad[name of HR Manager] took this up with me, as I hadn’t picked up any indication you wereuncomfortable

(you replied to the email with “ LOL very good !! “, and we haven’t discussed it since).

Could you let me know what theboundaries are that you would like me to respect ? I’m asking so I don’t do anything that makesyou feel uncomfortable again, and so I don’t give you reason to raise any otherconcerns about my conduct with your Manager or anyone else. Is itjust you don’t want to receive non-work email ?

In future, if you have a problemwith me, and you feel you can, come and see me about it to sort it out please. We had been getting on well.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

[my name]"

Pin Stripe.

[Emmzzi]

A) you are male

b) you have an office - higher graded?

 

I would have totally left it alone. If someone feels harrassed can you imagine how unpleasant it is to then have to explain in detail why? Just... Don't. It's a dreadful thing to ask of her!

 

I'd have a look at NLP and emotional intelligence if you want to get better at reading cues.

[Emmzzi]

PS I would read "we had been getting on well" as "I would like to have an affair with you." Please please put down the shovel!!

[citizenkain]

well,I cringed when I read the above email,I dont know how old you are but its very juvenile,best thing you do is just not contact this person at all!

[Emmzzi]

Oh and "don't give you cause to raise other concerns" reads as "you dropped me in it". This email has not helped at all!!!

[citizenB]

PS I would read "we had been getting on well" as "I would like to have an affair with you."

 

No disrespect Emmzzi, but is that truly how this could have been interpreted ^^^^^^

 

I totally agree that once the young lady had made the complaint the OP should have backed off and certainly not asked her to explain her actions.

 

IMHO, you could end up with a persecution complex in today's workplace ?

[Emmzzi]

No disrespect Emmzzi, but is that truly how this could have been interpreted ^^^^^^

 

I totally agree that once the young lady had made the complaint the OP should have backed off and certainly not asked her to explain her actions.

 

IMHO, you could end up with a persecution complex in today's workplace ?

 

By a woman feeling vulnerable, yes. Because if that is what you are prepared to put in writing, what would you say to her face?

 

Best to leave that sort of thing for people you don't work with. But then I have never understood why people feel the need for work to be their social life, as opposed to making the effort to make friends outside of work!

[renegadeimp]

If someone asks you to stay away, respect their wishes. You can easily regain friendship down the road. What you did can be considered harassment.

[citizenB]

By a woman feeling vulnerable, yes. Because if that is what you are prepared to put in writing, what would you say to her face?

 

Best to leave that sort of thing for people you don't work with. But then I have never understood why people feel the need for work to be their social life, as opposed to making the effort to make friends outside of work!

 

Righto, I think .. I understand what you are saying ..

 

As for mixing business and personal.. Something I avoided like the plague when I was of working age.

 

I guess I must have been very fortunate in that as a female, I never felt threatened or vulnerable..

[Emmzzi]

 

I guess I must have been very fortunate in that as a female, I never felt threatened or vulnerable..

 

Very, and I bet you had a better working life because of it! I am happy for your experience

[stikky62]

Any thoughts / help ?

 

I'm thinking what a stupid thing to do sending the second email, and yes, you need help. (lol, sorry, just jokin' with the last bit)

Put it behind you and only communicate with that colleague if it's a work related matter. If she wants to talk (be friends again), fair enough, but she'll have to approach you. There may not have been an official complaint put in but the damage is done - don't make it worse.

 

How would you approach putting this right ?

 

Do nothing, only communicate with that colleague if it's a necessary work related matter and forget it ever happened (don't let it get to you)

 

Is this normal HR thinking ?

 

Nope, I don't have an answer for that one though in the context of things I feel it's quite understandable/reasonable.

[steampowered]

I do have sympathy with you. Your email looks completely innocent to me. Life would be pretty boring if we can't have a laugh now and then. The fact that she raised an issue like that to HR does sound very odd. I wonder if there is more too it than just the email.

 

I think it is best just to back away rather than making a meal of it. Probably best to keep things strictly professional with her in future. The HR manager clearly does not think there is a significant issue, so do not create an issue.

[Emmzzi]

The HR manager clearly does not think there is a significant issue, so do not create an issue.

 

The HR manager is doing as the woman requested, I think. We do not know their opinion.

[Pusillanimous]

Pin Stripe you do come across as being angry about the HR intervention. Lick your wounds and ignore her as best you can.

[Sidewinder]

Don't take offence at some of the remarks above - they are clearly well intended to help you to avoid further trouble.

 

The point is that what is acceptable in one circumstance might be completely inappropriate in another, and the reaction here was clear message to understand that however innocent you may have thought your actions (and FWIW I don't see anything offensive in what you have disclosed to us - although we have only seen a potted version and there may have been something said previous to this which contributed to the colleague's discomfort?), it is sometimes better just to stop it dead and not probe further.

 

IMO a simple 'I apologise if anything I said made you uncomfortable' should have been the very most that you said, and a thank you for HR having a relatively quiet word to help you to perhaps not make the situation worse without realising.

 

I agree that this may represent a sad state of affairs where colleagues cannot engage in what might seem innocent banter, but at work, as in life we each set our own boundaries, and if we even inadvertently overstep these in the workplace, it is essential to just step back and withdraw without risking further trouble.

 

It is so easy to be accused of inappropriate behaviour and so hard to shake off an allegation which may be a simple misunderstanding but no less damaging to your reputation.

[Consumer dude]

She probably fancied you..

[Pin Stripe]

The way the thread went helped me. Before I was confused, didn't know whether my colleague just didn't want me to email her about non-work, or whether it was more than that. To me the first replies seemed quite brutally honest (and frankly shocked me at times ) and then became more empathic, but all agree I need to steer clear.

 

I see clearly it's down to my colleague if she wants to chat again, I just deal with her as I need to professionally. Without this I might (I think some will be shocked at my naivety) have tried to 'build bridges' with her... I don't doubt there are men like me who have formal harassment warnings on their files and reputations to match.

 

I think you've saved me from making things worse for both my colleague and me.

Thank you.

A slightly embarrassed, but less naiive, Pin Stripe

[Grotesque]

She probably fancied you..

 

Who, Emmzee?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Grotesque

[Emmzzi]

A slightly embarrassed, but less naiive, Pin Stripe

 

Good decision - sure things will pick uo from now on!

[transient]

No disrespect Emmzzi, but is that truly how this could have been interpreted ^^^^^^

 

I totally agree that once the young lady had made the complaint the OP should have backed off and certainly not asked her to explain her actions.

 

IMHO, you could end up with a persecution complex in today's workplace ?

 

I read it the same as Emmzzi too.

 

Also she may have felt uncomfortable talking about "Going down a red run" Well that was the first thing when I read it......

[smokejumper]

At my work place, we have a saying if it's fun or funny, don't do it.

 

This is a shame, but we don't realise how other people can be effected.

 

Over the years there have been some terrible things done to females( in my job) and therefore HR and management are very nervous.

 

Although your actions were all innocent, this could really have gone wrong and when put on paper things look a lot worse. You had a lucky warning/insight on how it works.

 

Read a few old threads, how work place disciplines have started, it's frightening.....I've been there ;-)....still there now.

[Pin Stripe]

 

Read a few old threads, how work place disciplines have started, it's frightening.....I've been there....

 

Okay, I've kept away from, and will continue to keep away from, this colleague.

BUT, I did mention this to her Manager (who is the HR Manager) today, and her Manager said that's not what the complainant wants, she wants to continue chatting with me as before but without me emailing her. She also confirmed there was no other issue involved, she simply felt 'singled out' by the email.

 

I think chatting further with this colleague is too risky for me. I'm giving up on a friendship here, but I'm not going to chat with her about non-work stuff any more.

 

This 'non-complaint' went to the HR Manager who took it to my Manager who frankly took it as bad judgement on my part. I found that embarrassing and it could affect career development for me in the short-term.

 

The complainant could have just asked me not to email her. We've been friendly for a while, she used to come into my office sometimes to talk, it isn't much to ask.

 

I did also read some old posts as suggested by Smokejumper (like the name!) and I think some people have tried to justify bad stuff. But also some of the HR stuff is really quite feminist, and it is scary how male (mostly) careers can be ruined by one quick mistake. That's my view.

 

In my situation I find it unjust that the HR Manager has told me it's not about the content, or my intention, and only about the perception of the email. So it's wrong because the person I send it to says it's wrong, and they don't have to give a reason. Nor is there any suggestion made to the complainant that it would have been better for her not to go to her Manager. Nor any suggestion that her Manager telling my Manager was OTT. (The complainant's Manager and I share the same Manager, so she was simply updating her Manager on what had been happening.)

 

It feels a bit dangerous to be male in the workplace to me now. Especially when I read some of the comments above, eg suggesting an acceptable interpretation of "we used to get on well" is "I want to have an affair with her".

Crikey! Frankly it's dangerous for a man to be friendly with a woman at work if that attitude is common. Interestingly I got an email today from a friend who's moved to the US, one difference he notes is "the people are niaively friendly in a way that Europe has lost". I'd add: what a shame we've lost that friendliness.

 

Having got past my upset, I'm surprised no-one, not one person, took the view this email is not wrong, and the HR process has been abused here.

 

I've looked up the criminal burden of proof for harassment in the UK. The actions have to be such that a reasonable person would find them harassment. To those in HR positions: shouldn't our HR policies say the same thing ? Surely it IS about the action, and a little about the intent too (not just about the perception).

 

Are we too afraid, and are we pandering to people who don't want to set their own boundaries, and are we being sexist in following this agenda. ??

 

Pin Stripe

[Grotesque]

Yes. Yes we are. But that is society today- the peeling away of feeling.