Are the DWP committing Fraud ?

[Jamess23]

Has anyone ever had a problem with the DWP activating a debt for overpayment when you weren't even signing on?

 

I am having money taken for an overpayment in January 2006 from Hull Jobcentre

(for a job I was supposed to have done) when I wasn't signing on

and not even living in the Hull catchment area,

 

I was living off the proceeds of my house and credit cards.

 

I did sign on later that year in late September when I was living near Hull.

 

I can't seem to get them to grasp the fact that even if I did a job then it was none of their business as I wasn't signing on.

 

I am awaiting written details of all this but to date have not received anything apart from a letter from the Hull jobcentre manager

confirming that there are no papers for that time and that I am still liable for £138.04 in total (£65.40 has already been deducted).

 

Anybody out there who can advise I would be grateful.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi Welcome to CAG,You need to contact the Manager at the DWP Debt Management Centre and ask for an explanation.

[Jamess23]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Yep have done but they seem to have their head in the sand and keep pushing me from pillar to post. I gleaned some info from your other advice re DM and have downloaded an SAR for information of the claim from the original dates of Jan to Feb 2006 and my supposed appeal letter I sent in January 2008. They are pretty good at trying to confuse the issue with lots of misinformation and distraction techniques but I think I have got a grip on it. It will be interesting to see how they get out a non-existent claim and appeal letter.

[Jamess23]

Oh by the way I think I may have a good 'special circumstance' for not appealing the recovery letter dated 01/07/13 regarding taking deductions from my JSA . It was delivered to the wrong address. I moved in March this year! They confirmed the letter in an email to my MP.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Got em then James!!

[Jamess23]

Looks like it! This afternoon I was informed by my MP's assistant that they just want a letter reiterating the reasons I am appealing the decision. They reckon that as the case was 'put incorrectly in a work queue' (DWP speak) and 'at that time they did not realise it wasn't working properly'! (this is in 2007 - are you keeping up?) I should get the debt reversed as they would not be able to find the letters and details that would be needed. Believe that you'd believe anything! I won't count my chickens quite yet though.

 

So as always they are right it is their system that went wrong. Of course they are indicating that I am lying by reversing it on a technicality but hey that's for another day and maybe another complaint.

 

Thanks for getting back.

[Jamess23]

It occurred to me during my battle with Debt Management that by taking money for a debt that does not exist they are actually defrauding us of monies we are entitled to. I went into my local police station to moot this and was given the Action Fraud leaflet. According to this leaflet:

 

'Fraud happens when someone lies, or deceives you in order to cause harm, usually by costing you money.'

 

So I rang the National Benefits Fraud Hotline and made a complaint against the jobcentre concerned. The CSA asked some quite personal details (my description basically) before taking details of the crime itself and then saying how seriously they would takes this?! However as with the honour of thieves they are protecting their own and when I rang to give more information a week or so later I was told to contact the jobcentre manager.

 

Had the roles been reversed they would have been all over me like rats on rotting meat but hey ho as with many government departments they are obviously above the law and can do what they like. I will be putting this to my MP and asking the manager of the fraud office whether they think this just or whether they can justify such an immoral attitude, excusing their own whilst we suffer at the hands of pathologically cynical and inhuman civil servants who seem to take pleasure in making other peoples lives a misery.

 

I think there needs to be a debate as to the ethics of authorities taking money when there is obviously not any money owed. These debts should be frozen until the appeal has been decided. Or not even started until you have made an appeal. Otherwise instead of being innocent until proved guilty, you are guilty until (in most cases) proved guilty (even though you are innocent). Most third world dictators would be proud of that - well, done DWP.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

What debt is it you claim does not exist?

 

BTW do you already have a thread on this particular matter?

[Jamess23]

Yes I do. Posted 22/08/13. It was the debt that was entered for a period when I wasn't signing on (Jan06-Feb06). You commented on the fact that they had sent the letter to the wrong address and hopefully they are about to reverse it.

 

There must have been an entry made maliciously to bring up this debt. I have good recollection of this period because I was doing a lot of travelling during 2006 (living off the sale of my house) and did no work from Nov 2005 to August 2006. I certainly did not sign on during that period because I was living in Norton, East Riding which is not in the Hull catchment area where the request for overpayment originated from. I moved to Halsham near Hull in March 2006. So there was no way I could have signed on in Hull at that time. So I can only assume that having confirmed that the debt is on the system in my name it has been put there fraudulently hence the fraud report.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I'll as the site team to merge the threads.

[maroondevo52]

Threads merged.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Threads merged.

 

Thank you sir!

[Jamess23]

Thanks - I did want a new thread and discussion to see if any body had a similar problem but I may be one of the rare few who can prove that the debt is bogus. How many others are either too scared to challenge or too confused after such a long passage of time to put together a good case.

 

I will not be letting it go once the debt is reversed. All this 'can't get your paperwork' and 'it was in the wrong queue' is just a smoke screen for something a little more serious. I have proof that I was living over 50 miles away from Hull at that time. I have bills and documents to prove it and a new telephone line was installed in the Halsham property on 2nd March 2006 of which I have the paperwork in my files. They will have to provide details of the job I was supposed to have done. You can't just put a job was done without details of where and when not just when. Mind you even if they had details of a job I was supposed to have done it is none of their business as I wasn't signing on. So I have a good sound case against these people at the DWP.

 

Exciting times ahead.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

It's easier for those trying to advise if they can see the 'whole' story in one place, it might otherwise get rather messy.

[Jamess23]

You're right I just wanted a more punchy headline. Thanks

[maroondevo52]

You're right I just wanted a more punchy headline. Thanks

 

Do you want it changed

[Jamess23]

Can do - I thought that 'Are the DWP committing Fraud?' a more thought provoking tag so yes please.

[maroondevo52]

Can do - I thought that 'Are the DWP committing Fraud?' a more thought provoking tag so yes please.

 

[caro]

Who would be benefitting from any alleged fraud?

[abc123def]

The DWP would be benefiting. However, as in reverse, fraud is only when someone intentionally makes a claim on monies they are know they are not eligible for, and fraud isn't when someone makes a mistake or does so unintentionally. So I feel fraud is unlikely to be a successful claim here against the DWP.

[Consumer dude]

More like to be maladinistration. Relying on a computer to give the impression that the individual is at fault but really is a smoke screen to hide there own manipulation..

[antone]

The DWP would be benefiting. However, as in reverse, fraud is only when someone intentionally makes a claim on monies they are know they are not eligible for, and fraud isn't when someone makes a mistake or does so unintentionally. So I feel fraud is unlikely to be a successful claim here against the DWP.

 

I agree with this. It's pretty shocking but I very much doubt it was done intentionally. What's the old saying - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence"?

 

If this is deliberate, an individual at the DWP has taken a huge risk with their job for no benefit to themselves.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The vast majority of these debts are very old and with Government tasking departments such as the DWP and HMRC to recover as much outstanding debt a possible, using the Welfare Reform Act and amendments in the case of the DWP debts relating to overpayments and unpaid loans dating from many years ago, changes in the Act in 2012 means these are NO LONGER Statute Barred and can be pursued rigorously.

 

The simple fact is that there may only be a 'log entry' relating to an overpayment or unpaid loan on an individuals file but that's all that's needed for the debt to be chased.

 

These debts bear no relationship to consumer credit debt, the CCA 1974, or OFT Guidance a totally separate arena has been created.

 

The use of 3rd parties i.e. DCAs charged with using a more 'rigorous' approach to debt recovery is just one part of this scene.

 

I have on file a letter from Lord David Freud (Minister for Welfare Reform DWP) which explained what the authorities are for the DCAs and how they are regulated.

 

To talk of fraud by the DWP holds no merit, where records show debt to the department it is tasked to collect and can now use all methods open to them.

[caro]

The vast majority of these debts are very old and with Government tasking departments such as the DWP and HMRC to recover as much outstanding debt a possible, using the Welfare Reform Act and amendments in the case of the DWP debts relating to overpayments and unpaid loans dating from many years ago, changes in the Act in 2012 means these are NO LONGER Statute Barred and can be pursued rigorously.

.

 

Are you saying that previously statute barred overpayments and loans can now be collected?

 

This is at odds with what DWP have advised a friend of mine.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hello Caro,

Amendments to the Welfare Reform Act have greatly changed the pursuit of OS DWP debt, I have a reference to the exact amendment in my office, but no in till Tuesday.

 

I appeared for an appellant on a DWP debt of some £15,000 at a Tribunal Hearing and lost spectacularly on SB due to the 2012 amendment.

 

I can seek further advice from 'on high' after the BH.

 

There has not been any limitation on the ability to deduct payments from existing benefit awards for years. I know of 25+ year old debts being collected from current benefits.

 

I will find the document and post up the references asap.