Yellow Box Junction PCN - Video proof is here

[innocent_man]

Hi everyone,

 

Its been a while since I had PCN, but I think July month is not so good for me, I had a Fixed penalty from police on sunday for stoping on a laybay near heathrow and today in post from westminister council for yellow box junction.

 

I won't say alot about yellow box ticket bcoz its my first and I have no clue how to deal with it.

 

So I am just posting the video.

 

 

 

 

Do you pros think I have any chance to challange this?

 

Berkely Street is a side street and I was emerging onto picadilly which is a main street.

 

Please ADMIN let me know if its not right to post video here.

Edited July 23, 2013 by innocent_man

[Conniff]

Video is fine if you don't mind your reg plate being seen.

 

I believe box junctions say 'do not enter box unless exit is clear' so on that basis, you have no challenge.

 

If something further up had stopped them moving, you would have been blocking any further movement of traffic.

 

Mind you, going by the speed with which the camera zoomed in on your plate, they were sitting there waiting for this.

 

Also, as you didn't impede anything and were only stopped for seconds, I think you should appeal anyway.

 

See, this says to me that this just for making money, did you see these threads ?

 

http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2373711/Barnet-Council-parking-permits-price-hike-ruled-illegal-stealth-tax.html

 

The second one especially shows (and the courts says so) that it is just for profit.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Conniff

[innocent_man]

thanks for quick reply. I will read the links now.

 

about the number plate thing, I blv people who come to this site are not to do plate scaming or cloning. they are also people like me who have been biten by the local authorities. So i guess its ok.

[Conniff]

It's not hidden out on the streets so no greater risk on here than there.

 

Others will be around later.

[sailor sam]

Link dosn't work for me.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[innocent_man]

now you can watch it clean and clear.

Edited July 23, 2013 by innocent_man

[innocent_man]

Link dosn't work for me.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

have a look now

[sailor sam]

I agree with Conniff I'm afraid. They will say you didn't leave sufficient space between you and the silver car in front which appears to be slowing down before you entered the box.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[crem]

I agree there looks little room for appeal against that PCN as it seems clear that you could not proceed completely through the box before you entered it. The only thing in that video that surprises me is that the operator didn't also zoom in on the silver car who also failed to judge correctly that they could clear the box.

[innocent_man]

The silver car was not a Merc

 

Trust me CCTV and parking wardens(drones) target expansive cars.

 

So you guys recon I should pay it?

[unimatrix1066]

Are nt the cameras there for spotting crime and not traffic violations?

[green_and_mean]

Are nt the cameras there for spotting crime and not traffic violations?

 

Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 states its a criminal offence to fail to adhere to box junctions, when did motoring offences become 'violations'??

[green_and_mean]

The box looks non compliant its too big and should be to the corners of Berkeley st and not several meters before the corner on the approach up Piccadily.

[innocent_man]

The box looks non compliant its too big and should be to the corners of Berkeley st and not several meters before the corner on the approach up Piccadily.

 

One can argue that, on this junction vehicle turn right also from berkeley street to piccadily. So they cover the whole right hand turning too. As you can see here on street view.

 

Street View Link

[innocent_man]

while reading some other information over the internet, I find this very interesting link and would like to share with you guys

 

Link about box junction allowed appeals.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Conniff

[Playing Devils Advocate]

Just joined this thread as I too have been given a penalty notice at the same Box Junction, Berkley Street into Piccadilly. I can't believe that the local authority is allowed to get away with this.

 

I happen to work very near to both this junction and the Arlington Street intersection into Piccadilly and both have exactly the same issue. Throughout most of the day, the traffic volume along Piccadilly is so severe that on nearly every change of lights at these junctions it is almost impossible to turn left out of Berkeley Street or right out of Arlington Street without stopping in the box junction.

 

If you follow the letter of the law, you simply wouldn't be able to make the manoeuvre. needless to say, you would also have a line of infuriated motorists backing up behind you. The traffic lights and the flow along Piccadilly mean that just about every change of lights, the cameras will focus in on one or more vehicles and issue penalty notices. They must know that it is impossible for motorists to make the turn into Piccadilly, yet they still issue the fines. There must be some recourse surely???

 

Anyone tried a FOI request to determine how many motorists are fined each day at this junction? I was so annoyed, that I went and photographed 8 changes of lights yesterday just to prove my point. See

 

and

Edited July 24, 2013 by Conniff

[Conniff]

Of course they know it's impossible, they obviously studied the junction and decided this was the setup that would make them the most money.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Conniff

[edjama]

The car in front appears to be a relatuively new Jaguar, so I'm sure they don't just pick on expensive cars. I am not sure about the link to allowed appeals as this seems to focus on the wording of the law, points which i'm sure would be clear and well knownon a forum such as this.

 

The car in front of the jag had stopped as you commenced the manouvre so it should of been clear you wouldn't be able to clear the junction, the jag almost did so may have been let off.

 

I suggest following advice as to checking legality of junction and/or paying

[innocent_man]

Guys, guys, can we try to solve the PCN rather than discussing what she earn or not?

 

I am going to challenge this PCN so any advice might helpful writing a letter please.

[Conniff]

Quite agree.

 

Have you checked out the legality of the box as suggested by G&M in #13 ?

Edited July 26, 2013 by Conniff

[Kiki1]

First off, Picadilly does not exist as it is written on the graphics generated name on the footage, it's Piccadilly. There is no Picadilly and Berkeley Street junction in the UK. Check the PCN to see if the primates have made the same error.

 

The junction shown goes from two lanes into three lanes on turning left, and so there should really have been some volume spare for everybody entering to complete. You could have been attempting to exit from lane two and enter lane two or three on Piccadilly, the car in front of you had already committed to lane three, but did not clear the yellow box exit completely, preventing you from turning into lane three, but more importantly lane two, where there appears to - just about - be a clear car's length.

 

You could also appeal on the moving image not showing the full junction at the time you commenced into the yellow box, as anything could have been happening elsewhere in the box (broken manhole, pedestrian losing control of a dog/child, or aliens landing at the start of an invasion). Unless they can give you unedited/raw footage showing everything from all positions (which may involve a different viewing angle) then you should take it further.

 

Dont forget the cameras are put in specific positions that cloud the true dimensions of a junction, the vehicles movement and the intentions of the driver, they are there not to ensure full clarity or enhance traffic flow, but to raise revenue for the council.

[innocent_man]

First off, Picadilly does not exist as it is written on the graphics generated name on the footage, it's Piccadilly. There is no Picadilly and Berkeley Street junction in the UK. Check the PCN to see if the primates have made the same error.

 

The junction shown goes from two lanes into three lanes on turning left, and so there should really have been some volume spare for everybody entering to complete. You could have been attempting to exit from lane two and enter lane two or three on Piccadilly, the car in front of you had already committed to lane three, but did not clear the yellow box exit completely, preventing you from turning into lane three, but more importantly lane two, where there appears to - just about - be a clear car's length.

 

You could also appeal on the moving image not showing the full junction at the time you commenced into the yellow box, as anything could have been happening elsewhere in the box (broken manhole, pedestrian losing control of a dog/child, or aliens landing at the start of an invasion). Unless they can give you unedited/raw footage showing everything from all positions (which may involve a different viewing angle) then you should take it further.

 

Dont forget the cameras are put in specific positions that cloud the true dimensions of a junction, the vehicles movement and the intentions of the driver, they are there not to ensure full clarity or enhance traffic flow, but to raise revenue for the council.

 

sorry for late reply, was away for week.

thanks for reply. The word Piccadilly is written on the PCN so we cant argue on that.

 

my grace period of £65 is over anyway, so I will go ahead at least until adjudicator reject my appeal. I have 100% success record with adjudicator until with the help of you guys. So let see.

 

any advice writting a letter might help?