work programme after 2 years

[RebeccaPidgeon]

It seems even 'consultants' aren't worth much in the WP sector http://indusdelta.co.uk/job/employment_consultant/131224_0

There is a distinction between a Real Consultant, working in the Real World, who possessed relevant competence and experience, rather than a mere Welfare To Work Clerk who joins (say) A4E or Working Links from being a Second Hand Salesman, and finds that they become (miraculously) an "Employment Consultant" overnight as was commonplace within the Flexible New Deal.

Edited October 1, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[Lorise]

So now we have to work for our benefits for 30 hours a week as well as 35 hours a week job search sitting in your local job centre office, don't know about you guys/gals but my local office doesn't even have any tables or chairs for people to sit on as they took away the waiting area, if you turn up early for a appointment you are not even allowed to wait within the building, so the first thing they will have to do is buy new table and chairs for all us that will have to be there form 9am until 5pm.

 

What was the whole 2 year WP about, if there is so many of us still unemployed after it they must now know it is useless and not working, instead of making us work for free, I did do voluntary work for 18 hours a week (was only meant to do 12 ) just before the WP started and the job centre made me quit as they said it was getting in the way of me looking for paid work, so now they want me to work for 30 hours plus and look for work when?

 

Wonder what wonders they will help us with in our time there as I signed on Monday just gone, I asked my advisor if they could print a job application off for me that I had been sent from a job I had applied for, as I had no ink in my printer at home.

I was told sorry we can't do that, I was told I would have to go to the library.

 

this is a honest question:

 

what is it they are there for?

[hatsanman]

So now we have to work for our benefits for 30 hours a week as well as 35 hours a week job search sitting in your local job centre office, don't know about you guys/gals but my local office doesn't even have any tables or chairs for people to sit on as they took away the waiting area, if you turn up early for a appointment you are not even allowed to wait within the building, so the first thing they will have to do is buy new table and chairs for all us that will have to be there form 9am until 5pm.

 

What was the whole 2 year WP about, if there is so many of us still unemployed after it they must now know it is useless and not working, instead of making us work for free, I did do voluntary work for 18 hours a week (was only meant to do 12 ) just before the WP started and the job centre made me quit as they said it was getting in the way of me looking for paid work, so now they want me to work for 30 hours plus and look for work when?

 

Wonder what wonders they will help us with in our time there as I signed on Monday just gone, I asked my advisor if they could print a job application off for me that I had been sent from a job I had applied for, as I had no ink in my printer at home.

I was told sorry we can't do that, I was told I would have to go to the library.

 

this is a honest question:

 

what is it they are there for?

if you choose to work for the 30 hours for your dole money you dont have to do 35 hours worksearch its 10 hours. i agree with you as ive asked many times can i take up a job for charity kids home etc work for my dole to get some self satisfaction and have always been told no because you need to search and be available for work. i did a tv interview on monday and asked these questions as it really is beyond belief. at the moment there are so many stories going around so dont belive them all . who knows if this will really happen as im bemused by it all. and the reason for the 2 year work programme was just to waste another 2 years of your life doing basically what jcp are trying now to do in 6 months .

[jasta11]

this is a honest question:

 

what is it they are there for?

 

They're clerks. Nothing more, nothing less. They're there to handle the paperwork generated by us annoying unemployed scroungers and to act as the governments watchdogs to ensure that we at least try and look like we're looking for work.

 

I refuse to even call them 'advisors', I always say 'clerk' which is more accurate.

 

I've done my 2 years on the WP with no help from them and am still getting no help from them now I'm on the PWP. I 'm surprised Hollywood film studios haven't been offering them jobs, because they're excellent at special effects - like making it look as though they're doing something when they're not.

 

Looks grand on paper; '2 years with a work provider offering wide-ranging support and help, then 6 months with a personal Jobcentre advisor offering more wide-ranging support and skilled help'.

 

Er...where? when?

[sillygirl1]

They are not even clerks, they are 'processors' who have a scripted approach to their work, anything outside the script they can't handle.

 

I was applying for 20 odd jobs a week and they still tried to get me to do a jobsearch with them, which already came up with jobs I had already applied for - (I wrote the reference nos on my jobsearch form which upset one clerk no end, she said I did not need to do that - but the following week I was given a piece of paper which showed that the way I wrote the stuff down was the 'approved' method!).

 

There are very few jobs about and too many people applying for them. One job recently I know about had 230 applicants - for a part-time shop assistant paying minimal wage. One office job in the local council (apprentice scheme) had 150 applicants.

[hatsanman]

never mind mr osbourne has promissed us all a job come april and i bet he backs out of that.

[Lorise]

if you choose to work for the 30 hours for your dole money you dont have to do 35 hours worksearch its 10 hours. i agree with you as ive asked many times can i take up a job for charity kids home etc work for my dole to get some self satisfaction and have always been told no because you need to search and be available for work. i did a tv interview on monday and asked these questions as it really is beyond belief. at the moment there are so many stories going around so dont belive them all . who knows if this will really happen as im bemused by it all. and the reason for the 2 year work programme was just to waste another 2 years of your life doing basically what jcp are trying now to do in 6 months .

 

 

I have finished at the WP, I am now on my 6mths back at the JCP, now my advisor/clerk has said because I haven't had any luck with my job search there must be something I am doing wrong (of course it has to be me, not the fact thousands are applying for hand full of jobs) so I am now mandated to go on a 2 day course from 9m until 4pm to learn how to fill out application forms, do mock interviews and how to talk through a telephone interview, I am 38 years old I have filled out god knows how many application forms to be honest how can you mess that up it is mostly your name and information then the little box you get to fill in about your hobbies.

 

I did say that I thought all this learning how to look for work was what the WP was meant to be about, just got a funny look back.

 

p.s I even got wrong for looking after my niece one day for my brother , as I was told she isn't my job, so in their eyes we have to keep every day of our lie free just in case.

[Lorise]

They're clerks. Nothing more, nothing less. They're there to handle the paperwork generated by us annoying unemployed scroungers and to act as the governments watchdogs to ensure that we at least try and look like we're looking for work.

 

I refuse to even call them 'advisors', I always say 'clerk' which is more accurate.

 

I've done my 2 years on the WP with no help from them and am still getting no help from them now I'm on the PWP. I 'm surprised Hollywood film studios haven't been offering them jobs, because they're excellent at special effects - like making it look as though they're doing something when they're not.

 

Looks grand on paper; '2 years with a work provider offering wide-ranging support and help, then 6 months with a personal Jobcentre advisor offering more wide-ranging support and skilled help'.

 

Er...where? when?

 

I agree, I have also finished the WP, total waste of 2 years, all the courses they are making us go on now we are back at the JCP should of been done when on the WP...instead I spent 2 years sitting in different offices, job searching online, all the while I had internet at home and would do a better job there, as I never got hassled by drunks or non English speaking men asking me to go for drinks with them, or had to listen when the young lads full of drugs would come in to see the nurse for their drug rehabilitation, or being told my child wasn't allowed in the office as it was too dangerous as some clients had just come out of jail for crimes against kids.....like you say could be a Hollywood movie

[JustInterested]

JCP will face a few difficulties if job seekers have to spend up to seven hours per day there, they don't have public toilets for a start.

 

They won't have to because it will be farmed out to private companies such as A4E, G4S, serco etc.

[hatsanman]

im now 60 and finished one year with pertemps then 2 years with sarina russo back to work programe now nearly 3 months into my 6 months with jcp plus. when i was with pertemps they should of found me a 4 wk work placement and coundnt find me one so i found it myself. i see my advisor in the morn and reckon he could say time for another 4 wk mandatory work placement. he threatened it a few times now so i just say yes please and he looks at me gone out. im not bothered bring it on i tell him so we will see tomorrow. i see on the news now they are talking about stopping the dole for under 25 year olds and they really expect to be voted back in. talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[hatsanman]

They won't have to because it will be farmed out to private companies such as A4E, G4S, serco etc.

you will be expected to hold it for 7 hours or be sanctioned

[san_d]

i see on the news now they are talking about stopping the dole for under 25 year olds and they really expect to be voted back in. talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Unfortunately this is popular with the seniors and I think the Tories are targeting that segment. They know they won't win the elections but a hung parliament is a possible outcome.

[Mr.P]

[the tories] are talking about stopping the dole for under 25 year olds

 

John Snow asked of a Tory "representative" this evening: You are targeting the under 25s, when do you intend to cut the state pension for the over 60s ?

 

The response was "we are all in this together..."

 

If this bunch remain in power, we can expect to see cuts to benefits across the board, from school leavers through to pensioners. No more distinction between ESA, JSA, WTC, or state pension - Everyone will be treated the same and expected to "work for their benefits".

 

Unfortunately this is popular with the seniors and I think the Tories are targeting that segment.

 

I think they blew it when they announced that they intended to means test the winter fuel allowance. With today's inference that the state pension was the next target, I think they can wave goodbye to the grey vote.

[jasta11]

I have finished at the WP, I am now on my 6mths back at the JCP, now my advisor/clerk has said because I haven't had any luck with my job search there must be something I am doing wrong (of course it has to be me, not the fact thousands are applying for hand full of jobs) so I am now mandated to go on a 2 day course from 9m until 4pm to learn how to fill out application forms, do mock interviews and how to talk through a telephone interview, I am 38 years old I have filled out god knows how many application forms to be honest how can you mess that up it is mostly your name and information then the little box you get to fill in about your hobbies.

 

I did say that I thought all this learning how to look for work was what the WP was meant to be about, just got a funny look back.

 

p.s I even got wrong for looking after my niece one day for my brother , as I was told she isn't my job, so in their eyes we have to keep every day of our lie free just in case.

 

You could argue that, as you've already done form-filling, interviews, etc while on the WP then it's not 'reasonable in your circumstances' to make you do any more as it doesn't enhance your employment prospects.

 

Seems to me more like Jobcentre targets are at work here - in theory, everyone who's done their 2 years on the WP would have already done form-filling, cv-writing, interview techniques, etc so there shouldn't be many who genuinely still need further 'help' while on the Post Work program.

 

I think it's all target-driven; the wonderful Jobcentre have to be seen to be doing something, so some people are going to have to go on further pointless courses just for the sake of appearances and statistics. I'm convinced targets exist for a variety of things, despite the constant denial by the DWP.

[martindn]

Finished my daily signing on, was not all bad the actual signing advisors was really nice respected the decision to decline access to a UJM account. Applied to 56 jobs in the past 2 weeks, 3 replies, all negative. So back to normal signing on been told to expect a course or work experience at my next appointment. I said i would not take part in any work experience/activity unless i had a guaranteed job at the end, and asked for statistics to prove that said work exp would help me (considering i have done 2 x 13 week work placement/experience before on the old new deal which helped about as much as a kick to the nuts) of course she said she personally did not have them but they exist in the system produced by "ministers" or some such tripe. I even had a minor argument over working for nothing, to which the always delightful reply of well you would work for your benefits, despite the fact that it is designed to support while seeking a job, not your wage for a 40 hour working week.

 

So is the whole work experience scheme mandatory? If it is do i have a case to argue if there is no conceivable gain to be made to my employment prospects? I mean i have worked for the past 2 years, ive done the 2 placements while on JSA, what gain can i possibly get working in a charity shop? Meh i have a sneaky feeling they are trying to push people to sign-off, all i can do is crack on i guess. Finish any ****ty scheme they give me and one day a reply i get from an application may not be negative.

Edited October 3, 2013 by martindn

[hatsanman]

Finished my daily signing on, was not all bad the actual signing advisors was really nice respected the decision to decline access to a UJM account. Applied to 56 jobs in the past 2 weeks, 3 replies, all negative. So back to normal signing on been told to expect a course or work experience at my next appointment. I said i would not take part in any work experience/activity unless i had a guaranteed job at the end, and asked for statistics to prove that said work exp would help me (considering i have done 2 x 13 week work placement/experience before on the old new deal which helped about as much as a kick to the nuts) of course she said she personally did not have them but they exist in the system produced by "ministers" or some such tripe. I even had a minor argument over working for nothing, to which the always delightful reply of well you would work for your benefits, despite the fact that it is designed to support while seeking a job, not your wage for a 40 hour working week.

 

So is the whole work experience scheme mandatory? If it is do i have a case to argue if there is no conceivable gain to be made to my employment prospects? I mean i have worked for the past 2 years, ive done the 2 placements while on JSA, what gain can i possibly get working in a charity shop? Meh i have a sneaky feeling they are trying to push people to sign-off, all i can do is crack on i guess. Finish any ****ty scheme they give me and one day a reply i get from an application may not be negative.

unfortunatly i think now you are back with jcp for 6 months there is a week work placement involved in it as i will find out today. yes its mandatory but whats 4 weeks . i also went on the 4 week free work new deal scheme which did nothing for me either but i think the reason they do it is supposed to be so you can add it to your cv so it looks like you have worked recently. i think at the mo they would struggle to get you in a charity shop for 4 full weeks as most of the placements in charity shops are taken up with folks doing comunity service from the courts. will let you know later what happens with me and mwa this morning but the way i look at it is ive been out of work 3 and a half years whats 4 weeks.

[hatsanman]

John Snow asked of a Tory "representative" this evening: You are targeting the under 25s, when do you intend to cut the state pension for the over 60s ?

 

The response was "we are all in this together..."

 

If this bunch remain in power, we can expect to see cuts to benefits across the board, from school leavers through to pensioners. No more distinction between ESA, JSA, WTC, or state pension - Everyone will be treated the same and expected to "work for their benefits".

 

 

 

I think they blew it when they announced that they intended to means test the winter fuel allowance. With today's inference that the state pension was the next target, I think they can wave goodbye to the grey vote.

they allready have cut pension for the over 60,s as you cant get it now untill your 65. im 60 and i dont get it but just scrape in to retire at 65 unless they change it yet again.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Finished my daily signing on, was not all bad the actual signing advisors was really nice respected the decision to decline access to a UJM account. Applied to 56 jobs in the past 2 weeks, 3 replies, all negative. So back to normal signing on been told to expect a course or work experience at my next appointment. I said i would not take part in any work experience/activity unless i had a guaranteed job at the end, and asked for statistics to prove that said work exp would help me (considering i have done 2 x 13 week work placement/experience before on the old new deal which helped about as much as a kick to the nuts) of course she said she personally did not have them but they exist in the system produced by "ministers" or some such tripe. I even had a minor argument over working for nothing, to which the always delightful reply of well you would work for your benefits, despite the fact that it is designed to support while seeking a job, not your wage for a 40 hour working week.

 

So is the whole work experience scheme mandatory? If it is do i have a case to argue if there is no conceivable gain to be made to my employment prospects? I mean i have worked for the past 2 years, ive done the 2 placements while on JSA, what gain can i possibly get working in a charity shop? Meh i have a sneaky feeling they are trying to push people to sign-off, all i can do is crack on i guess. Finish any ****ty scheme they give me and one day a reply i get from an application may not be negative.

 

The Mandatory Work Experience could be Mandatory .... and, it depends on the attitude of a Job Centre Front Line Adviser as to whether they submit a claimant to such a regime - which may be implemented by the same Welfare To Work Organisation that you have been with through the Work Programme. However, if you are already trained and skilled for the work that you are applying to do, there may be no benefit.

 

It is worth reading the DWP Provider Guidance for the relevant schemes, accessible from

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/

 

In respect to the Provider Guidance for Mandatory Work Activity,

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pg-part-p.pdf

Sections 3.11, 3.14 are of interest

3.13 It is not necessary (although it’s desirable wherever possible) for the placement to be in the same sector or type of work as the claimant’s job goal,as MWA is designed to help the claimant develop disciplines associated with employment. Claimants cannot choose their placements.

 

3.15 Placements must be additional to any existing or expected vacancies. You must ensure that employers are not taking advantage of MWA as a source of labour at the expense of employing workers in the open labour market.

 

You could argue that, even in terms of a MWA being within a Charity Shop, if the Organisation can pay their Senior Managers a generous Salary/Bonus Package, then if the Charity Shop wishes to recruit staff, they can either use their existing staff or recruit someone (including the unemployed) from the open market.

 

However, if push comes to shove, you are told to work on MWA in a Charity Shop, and cannot negotiate something more fitting with you job goals on the Job Seekers Agreement, then on the one hand, say that you will have to comply - but, also advise parties that you will be reporting all parties to HMRC for attempting to perpetrate Tax Fraud.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/prosecutions/crim-inv-policy.htm

 

Examples of the kind of circumstances in which HMRC will generally consider commencing a criminal, rather than civil investigations are:

 

• In cases of organised criminal gangs attacking the tax system or systematic frauds where losses represents a serious threat to the tax base, including conspiracy;
  

Edited October 3, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[hatsanman]

just got back from my advisor meeting and been refered to mandatory work placement. i can expect a call from whichever training co is dealing with it within next 48 working hours. yes its mandatory and the idea is we who have been out of work a fair while have new recent work on our cv,s so we put 4 weeks work/training on our cv,s after completed and hey ho we get a job or the powers to be thats what they think. i think its more of a punishment to try harder. been told i get call, i discuss my skills and they find me placement in my skills list so we will wait and see. im down as flt driver, van driver, or industrial painter so maybe ill get to paint the charity shop out or the flt or the white van.

[labyrinth]

Due to finish wp end of the month. Have a few questions:

 

If chosen for daily signings will this be the same time every day and what happens at daily signings do you have to have found a certain numbers of jobs to apply for day to day ? If you volunteer do they work around this or do daily signings come first ?

 

Can you be forced to give up your volunteer work to do MWA ? I know the rules keep changing and it recently changed to MAY not be suitable if currently working/volunteering/training. But if their only arguement for MWA is to have recent work history on CV then can I be made to stop my volunteer work ?

 

Also if they suggest a course in CV writing etc, I did this already on wp and have certificates so would I be forced to repeat same stuff and give up my volunteer work to do that too ?

[labyrinth]

I hope I get the chance to talk about my experience of last 2 years at this pwps diagnostic interview. In my 2 years at wp I have had 3 job offers that fell through the 1st job I had lined up a date to start etc when I joined wp. I did not sign the waiver yet the providers still contacted the company, in fact hassled the company with calls, letters. emais so much so the company redacted their job offer because of it. I did all the complaint procedure all the way to ICE and all I got was it was human error they didnt check if I had given consent. I did get a discretionary payment for the length of time the providers took to answer each of my letters though and the whole length of time the whole complaint took. The DWP were copied in on this according to ICE.

 

2nd job offer I had my CRB back then they turned around and said they needed additional employer references I had no more and they were unwilling to accept character references even though I had at least 3 waiting to send so again job offer withdrawn.

 

3rd job offer very recent got told I have the job need to do DBS check (old CRB) then a week or so before due to start a senior manager got in touch to say my DBS failed due to unsufficient identity documents. I argued this as according to DBS website I provided over the amount of documents to do the route 2 checks. I got in touch with DBS directly myself to only be told they had never even received an application in my name recently. I was furious and that is currently going through complaint too.

 

So my time on wp has been ok the wp side of things but I feel let down by employers and messed about raising my hopes then dashing them. Having 3 job offers means I must be capable and impressive in job interviews so will I be given the option to talk about this at pwps interview or will they just assume I am useless and obviously need help with interview techniques etc ?

[Chester6]

Cv help etc is just stupid as it was supposedly done on the WP, one if the tutors there was lazy and had no people skills, there are people willing to learn but they have zero that they can teach

The computers are ancient and slow at whatever company you get stuck with in my experience,the fortnight course from the jobcentre was tedious, basic and excelled at time wasting

There was a vapid airhead tutor who judged by appearance

[Charlotte_Henderson]

 

If chosen for daily signings will this be the same time every day and what happens at daily signings

 

First of all i doubt most JCP could cope with people signing on daily, ours struggles with fortnightly ones

 

And even if they could cope they would need extra staff.

[martindn]

First of all i doubt most JCP could cope with people signing on daily, ours struggles with fortnightly ones

 

And even if they could cope they would need extra staff.

 

They dedicate 9am till 10:30am at my local JCP for daily signers, there was plenty when i was there it was so full we was waiting upto an hour after specified time to sign on. Out of a floor of about 30 people, 3 staff was there to service those daily signing on, they do not have enough staff to do it, that does not mean they wont it looks like they are doing it for everyone who come off the WP at my JCP. They call it "intensive help".

[Nystagmite]

What good does daily signing do? if you're waiting for an hour, that's an hour gone for which you could be job hunting instead.