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    • Thank you very much for your help. To answer your two questions:  1. I did not send a CPR request when the Claim Form arrived. 2. They did send a claim form, in March 2023. This is the document from which I copied the particulars of their claim.  
    • Thanks. That's a lot to wade through.  Will get on to it. Two other quick questions. Did you send them a CPR request when the claim form arrived? Are you sure they didn't send a Letter of Claim before they sued you?
    • Hi there, Which Court have you received the claim from? MCOL (County Court Business Centre, Northampton) Name of the Claimant: Uk Parking Control Limited Claimants Solicitors: DCB Legal Date of issue: March 2023 Following events: — DQ sent to me July 2023 — I filed a DQ in September 2023 — My claim was transferred to [my local court] September 2023 — Received Notice of Allocation to Small Claims Track (Hearing) including date for hearing in April 2024 — Witness statement due by May 14 — Claimant must pay court fees by May 17 — Court hearing on June 18   What is the claim for –  1. The defendant is indebted to the claimant for a Parking Charge issued at [x] issued to vehicle [__] at Walcot Yard, Walcot Road, Bath, Ba1 5bg. 2. The PCN details are [___]. 3. The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. The vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms on Cs signs (the Contract), this incurring the PCNs. 4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper. Despite requests, the PCN is outstanding. The Contract entitles C to damages.  AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS 1. £160 being the total of the PCN(s) and damages. 2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of [x]p until judgement or sooner payment. 3. Costs and court fees   What is the value of the claim? ~260 Amount Claimed ~170 court fees ~35 legal rep fees ~50 Total Amount  ~260 Have you moved since the issuance of the PCN? No Did you receive a letter of Claim With A reply Pack wanting I&E etc about 1mth before the claimform? No Here is the defence I filed:  DEFENCE 1. The parking charges referred to in this claim did not arise from any agreement of terms. The charge and the claim was an unexpected shock. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all. It is denied that any conduct by the driver was a breach of any prominent term and it is denied that this Claimant (understood to have a bare licence as managers) has standing to sue or form contracts in their own name. Liability is denied, whether or not the Claimant is claiming 'keeper liability', which is unclear from the Particulars. The facts as known to the Defendant: 2. It is admitted that on the material date the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, but liability is denied. 3. While working at a nearby premises, [___] the Defendant was informed by the manager that they had an informal verbal agreement with the developer and owner operator of [___], which supposedly allowed them to park there. Based on this information, the Defendant parked their car there in good faith. The Defendant was not aware of any restrictions or limitations to this agreement, and therefore believed that they had the right to park there without penalty. 4. The Defendant avers that the Claimant failed to serve a Notice to Keeper compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Consequently, the claimant cannot transfer liability for this charge to the Defendant as keeper of the vehicle. 5. The Particulars of Claim ('POC') appear to be in breach of CPR 16.4, 16PD3 and 16PD7, and fail to "state all facts necessary for the purpose of formulating a complete cause of action”. 6. The Defendant is unable, on the basis of the POC, to understand with certainty what case is being pursued. 7. The POC are entirely inadequate, in that they fail to particularise (a) the contractual term(s) relied upon; (b) the specifics of any alleged breach of contract; and (c) how the purported and unspecified 'damages' arose and the breakdown of the exaggerated quantum. 8. The claim has been issued via Money Claims Online and, as a result, is subject to a character limit for the Particulars of Claim section of the Claim Form. The fact that generic wording appears to have been applied has obstructed any semblance of clarity. The Defendant trusts that the court will agree that a claim pleaded in such generic terms lacks the required details and requires proper particularisation in a detailed document within 14 days, per 16PD.3 9. The guidance for completing Money Claims Online confirms this and clearly states: "If you do not have enough space to explain your claim online and you need to serve extra, more detailed particulars on the defendant, tick the box that appears after the statement 'you may also send detailed particulars direct to the defendant.'" 10. No further particulars have been filed and to the Defendant's knowledge, no application asking the court service for more time to serve and/or relief from sanctions has been filed either. 11. In view of it having been entirely within the Claimant's Solicitors' gift to properly plead the claim at the outset and the claim being for a sum, well within the small claims limit, such that the Defendant considers it disproportionate and at odds with the overriding objective (in the context of a failure by the Claimant to properly comply with rules and practice directions) for a Judge to throw the erring Claimant a lifeline by ordering further particulars (to which a further defence might be filed, followed by further referral to a Judge for directions and allocation) the court is respectfully invited to strike this claim out. 13. Whilst the new Code and Act is not retrospective, it was enacted due to the failure of the self-serving BPA & IPC Codes of Practice. The Minister is indisputably talking about existing (not future) cases when declaring that 'recovery' fees were 'designed to extort money'. A clear steer for the Courts which it is hoped overrides mistakes made in a few appeal cases that the parking industry desperately rely upon (Britannia v Semark-Jullien, One Parking Solution v Wilshaw, Vehicle Control Services v Ward and Vehicle Control Services v Percy). 14. Far from being persuasive, regrettably these one-sided appeals saw Circuit Judges led in one direction by Counsel for parking firms, and the litigant-in-person consumers lacked the wherewithal to appeal. In case this Claimant tries to rely upon these, the Defendant avers that errors were made in every case. Evidence was either overlooked (including signage discrepancies in Wilshaw, where the Judge was also oblivious to the BPA Code of Practice and the DVLA KADOE requirement for landowner authority) or the Judge inexplicably sought out and quoted from the wrong Code altogether (Percy). In Ward, a few seconds' emergency stop out of the control of the driver was unfairly aligned with the admitted parking contract in Beavis. Those learned Judges were not in possession of the same level of information as the DLUHC, whose incoming statutory Code of Practice now clarifies such matters as a definition of 'parking' as well as consideration and grace periods and minor matters such as 'keying errors' or 'fluttering tickets/permits' where a PCN should not have been issued at all, or should have been cancelled in the pre-action dispute phase. POFA and CRA breaches 15. Pursuant to Schedule 4 paragraph 4(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the POFA') the sum claimed exceeds the maximum potentially recoverable from a registered keeper, even in cases where a firm may have complied with other POFA requirements (adequate signage, Notice to Keeper wording/dates, and a properly communicated 'relevant contract/relevant obligation'). If seeking keeper/hirer liability - unclear from the POC - the Claimant is put to strict proof of full compliance and liability transferred. 16. Claiming costs on an indemnity basis is unfair, per the Unfair Contract Terms Guidance (CMA37, para 5.14.3), the Government guidance on the Consumer Rights Act 2015 ('CRA'). The CRA introduced new requirements for 'prominence' of both contract terms and 'consumer notices'. In a parking context, this includes signage and all notices, letters and other communications intended to be read by the consumer. 17. Section 71 creates a duty upon courts to consider the test of fairness, including (but not limited to) whether all terms/notices were unambiguously and conspicuously brought to the attention of a consumer. Signage must be prominent, plentiful, well placed and lit, and all terms unambiguous and obligations clear. The Defendant avers that the CRA has been breached due to unfair/unclear terms and notices, pursuant to s62 and paying due regard to examples 6, 10, 14 & 18 of Schedule 2 and the requirements for fair/open dealing and good faith. ParkingEye v Beavis is distinguished (lack of legitimate interest/prominence of terms) 18. ParkingEye overcame the possibility of their £85 charge being dismissed as punitive, however the Supreme Court clarified that ‘the penalty rule is plainly engaged’ in parking cases, which must each be determined on their own facts. That 'unique' case met a commercial justification test, and took into account the prominent yellow/black uncluttered signs with £85 in the largest/boldest text. Rather than causing other parking charges to be automatically justified, the Beavis case facts set a high bar that this Claimant has failed to reach. 19. Paraphrasing from the Supreme Court, deterrence is likely to be penal if there is a lack of a 'legitimate interest' in performance extending beyond the prospect of compensation flowing directly from the alleged breach. The intention cannot be to punish a driver, nor to present them with hidden terms, unexpected/cumbersome obligations nor 'concealed pitfalls or traps'. 20. In the present case, the Claimant has fallen foul of those tests. The Claimant’s small signs have vague/hidden terms and a mix of small font, and are considered incapable of binding a driver. Consequently, it remains the Defendant’s position that no contract to pay an onerous 'penalty' was seen or agreed. Binding Court of Appeal authorities which are on all fours with a case involving unclear terms and a lack of ‘adequate notice’ of a parking charge, include: (i) Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] 1 WLR 461 (‘red hand rule’) and (ii) Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1970] EWCA Civ2, both leading authorities confirming that a clause cannot be incorporated after a contract has been concluded; and (iii) Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest: CA 5 Apr 2000, where Ms Vine won because it was held that she had not seen the terms by which she would later be bound, due to "the absence of any notice on the wall opposite the parking space'' (NB: when parking operator Claimants cite Vine, they often mislead courts by quoting out of context, Roch LJ's words about the Respondent’s losing case, and not from the ratio). 21. Fairness and clarity of terms and notices are paramount in the statutory Code and this is supported by the BPA & IPC Trade Bodies. In November 2020's Parking Review, solicitor Will Hurley, CEO of the IPC, observed: "Any regulation or instruction either has clarity or it doesn’t. If it’s clear to one person but not another, there is no clarity. The same is true for fairness. Something that is fair, by definition, has to be all-inclusive of all parties involved – it’s either fair or it isn’t. The introduction of a new ‘Code of Practice for Parking’ provides a wonderful opportunity to provide clarity and fairness for motorists and landowners alike." Lack of standing or landowner authority, and lack of ADR 22. DVLA data is only supplied to pursue parking charges if there is an agreement flowing from the landholder (ref: KADOE rules). It is not accepted that this Claimant (an agent of a principal) has authority from the landowner to issue charges in this place in their own name. The Claimant is put to strict proof that they have standing to make contracts with drivers and litigate in their own name. 23. The Claimant failed to offer a genuinely independent Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). The Appeals Annex in the new incoming statutory Code shows that genuine disputes such as this would see the charge cancelled, had a fair ADR existed. Whether or not a person engaged with it, the Claimant's consumer blame culture and reliance upon the industry's own 'appeals service' should not sway the court into a belief that a fair appeal was ever on offer. The rival Trade Bodies' time-limited and opaque 'appeals' services fail to properly consider facts or rules of law and reject almost any dispute: e.g. the IAS upheld appeals in a woeful 4% of decided cases (IPC's 2020 Annual Report). Conclusion 24. The claim is entirely without merit. The Defendant believes that it is in the public interest that claims like this should be struck out because knowingly enhanced parking claims like this one cause consumer harm on a grand scale. 25. There is ample evidence to support the view - long held by many District Judges - that these are knowingly exaggerated claims. For HMCTS to only disallow those costs in the tiny percentage of cases that reach hearings whilst other claims to continue to flood the courts unabated, is to fail hundreds of thousands of consumers who suffer CCJs or pay inflated amounts, in fear of intimidating pre-action threats. 26. In the matter of costs, the Defendant asks: (a) at the very least, for standard witness costs for attendance at Court, pursuant to CPR 27.14, and (b) for a finding of unreasonable conduct by this Claimant, seeking costs pursuant to CPR 46.5. 27. Attention is drawn specifically to the (often-seen from this industry) distinct possibility of an unreasonably late Notice of Discontinuance. Whilst CPR r.38.6 states that the Claimant is liable for the Defendant's costs after discontinuance (r.38.6(1)) this does not normally apply to claims allocated to the small claims track (r.38.6(3)). However, the White Book states (annotation 38.6.1): "Note that the normal rule as to costs does not apply if a claimant in a case allocated to the small claims track serves a notice of discontinuance although it might be contended that costs should be awarded if a party has behaved unreasonably (r.27.14(2)(dg))." Statement of Truth I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.
    • Hi, I was caught by the security guards today for shoplifting in John Lewis. I think total amount is about £500. They said they saw me on CCTV last week, I was freaked out so I admitted it. I know it’s awful… I cried as I was too scared and begged them pls don’t call the police. They took pics of me and wrote down my details from banking app as I didn’t have any id with me. I told them my difficulties that I was scammed £35k recently and I lost my job so I stole those things and sell them. I apologised and they said they won’t call the police but I’m banned and will receive letters from RLP for fines which including this time and the last time(I didn’t give back the goods I took last time). I know it’s very very bad, I feel shameful and so depressed so hopeless about everything happened. I wonder since it’s a lot of money, will they sue me, take me to the court, or will they change their mind to call the police when they check the cctv footage to check how much I owe them? I said sorry I really couldn’t afford the fine at this situation, they said it’s their job they can’t do anything. Later when I was out of the mall, the security guard said, I can call RLP to negotiate about the fee. Also I’m probably moving to another city in 2 months, so if they want to take me to court but I didn’t receive any letters what should I do… and the security guy told me it’s worse as I traveled to this city and stealing stuff. I’m home now but feeling awful, wish people could give me some advice, thank you very much.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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crashed into stationary vehicle


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Friday the 18th Icy conditions,

 

I am driving at a snails pace along a road which is a very slight descent into a 90 degree bend, a

round the bend to the left are legal parking bays,

at the point of turn and for several yards down on the opposite side are double yellow lines.

 

A professional driver for a nameless security firm has parked on the double yellow lines on what I would say is the apex of the bend and abandoned his vehicle (parked not waiting).

 

here's the thing owing to the Icy conditions, his choice of illegal parking space meant that as I crawled round the corner very carefully I might add,

the line I had to take due to his position caused my car to lose traction,

 

the momentum from the 5 or so mph and the sloping road sent my car skating into his van.

 

I have already been told about how hitting a stationary vehicle is always your fault but I really feel that as a professional driver,

He should be more than aware of the dangers of parking on a corner at the bottom of an icy slope. surely professional competence comes into this,

 

surely the company he represents should be ensuring that their drivers are aware of where are appropriate places to park,

and if nothing else, double yellow lines are there for a reason and in this case had he followed the Highway Code.

at the worst I would have hit the kerb.

 

the front end of my car is dented and the bumper is cracked I feel that I had driven carefully and conscientiously.

 

I feel I can't be responsible here, this isn't a 'no fault' 'knock for knock' situation.

 

The blame (in my opinion) should be allocated to the driver or the company for whom he works.

 

Its surely coming down to the incompetence and negligence of the driver. who's with me on this?

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I'm a Technical Motor Claims Manager for a large insurance company. I've been in the industry for a few years now, and quite frankly I've never heard something as ridiculous as this.

It wasn't his poor choice of parking that caused the accident, it was your poor judgement of the ability of your vehicle.

You'd get laughed out of court with this.

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I'm a Technical Motor Claims Manager for a large insurance company. I've been in the industry for a few years now, and quite frankly I've never heard something as ridiculous as this.

It wasn't his poor choice of parking that caused the accident, it was your poor judgement of the ability of your vehicle.

You'd get laughed out of court with this.

 

Technical motor claims manager or loss adjuster?

it was a monumentally irresponsible not to mention illegal place to park.

I'd been driving my car all day through the snow and am well aware of its handling abilities.

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familuar with the road?

 

been there before?

if it was covered in snow

 

how do you know abou the DYL?

 

does that van aways park there?

 

you've gotta think very carefully here

 

took lots of photos?

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Friday the 18th Icy conditions, I am driving at a snails pace along a road which is a very slight descent into a 90 degree bend, around the bend to the left are legal parking bays, at the point of turn and for several yards down on the opposite side are double yellow lines.

A professional driver for a nameless security firm has parked on the double yellow lines on what I would say is the apex of the bend and abandoned his vehicle (parked not waiting). here's the thing owing to the Icy conditions, his choice of illegal parking space meant that as I crawled round the corner very carefully I might add, the line I had to take due to his position caused my car to lose traction, the momentum from the 5 or so mph and the sloping road sent my car skating into his van. I have already been told about how hitting a stationary vehicle is always your fault but I really feel that as a professional driver, He should be more than aware of the dangers of parking on a corner at the bottom of an icy slope. surely professional competence comes into this, surely the company he represents should be ensuring that their drivers are aware of where are appropriate places to park, and if nothing else, double yellow lines are there for a reason and in this case had he followed the Highway Code. at the worst I would have hit the kerb. the front end of my car is dented and the bumper is cracked I feel that I had driven carefully and conscientiously. I feel I can't be responsible here, this isn't a 'no fault' 'knock for knock' situation. The blame (in my opinion) should be allocated to the driver or the company for whom he works. Its surely coming down to the incompetence and negligence of the driver. who's with me on this?

 

IF (and it is a big if) it is to be due to "incompetence and negligence" of a driver : it is your incompetence and negligence.

 

The van may have had to be left for safety, not being able to be safely moved due to ice or the adverse weather.

It's presence should have been a warning of danger of ice / skidding.

 

You might as well say you want to sue the Almighty for the weather.

 

It isn't "knock for knock". From what you have posted it is 100% your liability. It may have been an accident, but your liability.

 

If you were expecting lots of posts agreeing with you : I fear you'll be disappointed.

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I'm afraid that you will be held liable. You may be able to reduce your liability by trying to claim that the other guy contributed to the accident by his own negligence - but from what you say, you might reduce your liability by 10%. Not more.

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familuar with the road?

 

been there before?

if it was covered in snow

 

how do you know abou the DYL?

 

does that van aways park there?

 

you've gotta think very carefully here

 

took lots of photos?

 

dx

 

The van is there on a regular basis, He was well aware of the fact he was on double yellows but oblivious to the fact that he was at the bottom of what was a slight but icy hill and that he had significantly narrowed the space available to negotiate the left turn at its most critical point. as I mentioned previously he refused to give me his name so may have been aware of potential liability.

yes I have photos of the corner, it's approach, the position of the van and the very clearly visible double yellow lines

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Technical Motor Claims Manager. Loss Adjuster is an entirely different occupation.

 

There is no getting away from the fact you collided with a stationary object. You have failed to steer or otherwise control your vehicle so as to avoid a collision. The position of his vehicle is irrelevant.

 

Give it up.

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How the courts would apportion the blame and how the insurance companies will apportion the blame are two very different things.

 

Assuming the costs are mostly covered by the excess, the OP's insurer is highly likely to accept full liability. It's not going to be financially viable for them to battle it out in the courts or commercially viable for them to enter into a long and protracted argument with the other insurer over the contributory negligence of parking a car illegally. You just need to consider jpd070's insight to know that you are fighting an uphill battle.

 

BankFodder's suggestion that the illegally parked van could be held partly to blame is backed up by the courts. Hannam v Mann (1984) RTR 252 found that the owner of an illegally parked car was one quarter to blame for an accident. The judge considered that the accident could have been avoided had the car not been parked illegally (in this case, unlit and too close to a junction) but still found the driver to be three quarters to blame, which in my opinion is the absolute best-case outcome you could aim for.

 

You also need to consider any unloading exemptions for double yellow lines. The van could have been parked legally making you completely, instead of just largely, to blame.

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I think you should be looking at proximate cause i.e. the initial cause that gives rise to a chain of events. The simple test for proximate cause is "but for"

 

e.g. If it wasn't but for the ice, the accident wouldn't have happened hence the proximate cause of the accident was the ice.

 

In this incident, the proximate cause could be the illegally parked van i.e. if it wasn't but for the illegally parked van, the OP wouldn't have needed to manoeuvre around the vehicle and the accident wouldn't have happened.

 

To be successful in claiming against the van driver, you would have to prove that any reasonable person would have foreseen that parking the van in the way it was parked would be likely to cause a danger to other motorists.

 

It would be a difficult case to prove and likely to incur expensive litigation cost which insurers would seek to avoid where there is a chance that they may lose.

 

But I can see the OP point of view in that the parked van was a contributory factor to the accident happening.

 

I don't think it is fair to bring the OPs driving ability into question. If you have ever lost control of a vehicle on an icy road you would be aware that sometimes there is very little you can do to regain control. When you have no grip on the road, the vehicle will go where it wants no matter what you try to do especially where there is an incline. Its happened to me a few times and its not a nice experience!

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Not at all Northernpug. If a driver loses control of a vehicle it is down to the driver irrespective of the conditions. In this case the driver admits it was icy so the driver should have been driving 1. According to the conditions, surroundings and 2. According to their abilities in those conditions.

 

It is quite safe to drive on ice if you know what you are doing and how to react.

 

In most cases where a car starts to slide on ice the driver tends to hit the brakes which is the wrong thing to do and is frequently the cause of hitting things rather than reacting in an appropriate manner.

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I don't think it is fair to bring the OPs driving ability into question. If you have ever lost control of a vehicle on an icy road you would be aware that sometimes there is very little you can do to regain control. When you have no grip on the road, the vehicle will go where it wants no matter what you try to do especially where there is an incline. Its happened to me a few times and its not a nice experience!

 

It is unclear whose comments you feel are unfair, as you haven't quoted them.

 

My contribution was:

 

IF (and it is a big if) it is to be due to "incompetence and negligence" of a driver : it is your incompetence and negligence.

 

So, I did say "if", and the OP was all too ready to suggest the van driver was incompetent / negligent!

 

Even a skilled driver can have an accident.

However, which is more common : skilled driver driving within their competence who has an accident, or driver driving outside their abilities who then blames anyone except themselves (or accepts that sometimes, accidents happen)

Edited by BazzaS
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heliosuk, I am well aware of the theory of what to do when you get into a skid situation and it generally works when on the flat but on an icy hill, it makes little difference, the vehicle will just go where it wants.

 

To drive safely on ice you need winter tyres which very few cars in the UK have fitted.

 

The OP stated that he was doing 5mph, i.e. driving according to the conditions. The vehicle started to slide down a sloping road. When you slide down a slope, braking don't work, steering don't work and accelerating even gently is likely to cause the wheels to spin and increase sideways motion so what do you suggest should be done to regain control of a vehicle sliding down a hill?

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it surpises me that 5-10MPH did any damage.....

unless the slide increased his speed....

 

if his excess is higher than the cost of repair, to me its a no brainer.

 

even lets say he did win, increased premuims [that they say always don't happen] must surely contribute too.

 

it might also be intereting if the van driver decided to claim as well.......

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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heliosuk, I am well aware of the theory of what to do when you get into a skid situation and it generally works when on the flat but on an icy hill, it makes little difference, the vehicle will just go where it wants.

 

To drive safely on ice you need winter tyres which very few cars in the UK have fitted.

 

The OP stated that he was doing 5mph, i.e. driving according to the conditions. The vehicle started to slide down a sloping road. When you slide down a slope, braking don't work, steering don't work and accelerating even gently is likely to cause the wheels to spin and increase sideways motion so what do you suggest should be done to regain control of a vehicle sliding down a hill?

 

I'm watching this with great interest as it happened to me a few months ago (apart from there being a parked vehicle there). Ice on an un-treated hill with a sharp bend at the bottom. I drove very appropriately going down the hill at about 5 mph. All was well until I began to turn the wheels into the bend at the bottom... car carried straight on! Managed to bring the car to a halt before hitting the kerb (road quite narrow) but had there been anything parked in the bend, I would of certainly hit it.

 

Now I regard myself as a competent driver (PCV class 1 etc) but there was NOTHING i could of done to avoid a collision.

 

Please Note

 

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If going down icy hills at 5 miles an hour still causes the car to skid then the obvious thing too say is the speed was not appropriate to the conditions. The way to avoid the collision or potential collision would be to avoid the hill as it was clearly too risky to drive down.

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If going down icy hills at 5 miles an hour still causes the car to skid then the obvious thing too say is the speed was not appropriate to the conditions. The way to avoid the collision or potential collision would be to avoid the hill as it was clearly too risky to drive down.

 

Brilliant! And with the absence of any warning signs, exactly how do you know whether there is any ice there or not unless you drive down there? AND even if you do discover the road is icy, exactly how do you then avoid it once you are already driving down it?

 

In my case, I was able to negotiate the road without having an accident. BUT I put that down to partial skill and partial luck. Had there been something coming the other way or something parked on the bend, I certainly would of hit it. At the end of the day, the LA responsible for the roads should either treat or close them, especially hilly ones.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

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I was in a similar situation the other day. Luckily my car slid into the kerb and not another car. I was turning off the ungritted main road into a secondary road ( also ungritted). I was pulling off in second gear, doing no more than 5 mph, the car lost all grip and slid sideways into the kerb.

 

Result? The front nearside wheel was bent and the steering became loose. So yes, to say things cant happen at low speeds is silly at best, and those who are saying "drive to the conditions" either have no clue what they are talking about, or seem to think we live in a perfect world.

 

I should add i know 100% i was doing no more than 5 mph as my GPS records my speed. Every time i stop for more than 5-10 secs, it "saves" then "resets" itself, so i know how fast i was going at certain points.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

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It was an accident, things happen, but if you hit somthing thats stationary and you are the one moving its got to be down to you, if you challenge this and say that the other vehicle wasnt parked correctly then they could come back and say the op was driving dangerously, or without due care and attention, it a nuscience but it is just one of those things and I would say not worth getting into a debate with the insurance companies.

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It's not rocket science this..........if you get into a slide on ice you are going too fast for the conditions. And as regards trying to hold a parked van as responsible or a contributory factor whether it is parked legally or not............well that's just beyond me.

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Again. it takes one loss of grip under the car to cause you to slide, and once you start sliding, its almost impossible to stop, no matter how fast you were going.

 

However, i do agree with the van comment. If you saw a van there and the road surface was obviously hazardous, the driver should have left PLENTY of space, and if they were unsure, just do what the van driver did. Park up and walk, or take another route.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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It's not rocket science this..........if you get into a slide on ice you are going too fast for the conditions.

 

I find it astounding that you fail to understand or accept that some slides, given the right conditions, are neither caused by the driver nor able to be stopped by the driver.

 

On a slope or hill, simply making any attempt to move the car may be too much, but until you move the car you don't know! I have seen cars slide sideways at a snails pace and even seen them side backwards when a forward motion up a slope was intended.

 

I am not necessarily saying the OPs bump was such a case, but you total non-acceptance that such slides can take place is somewhat surprising.

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