father - benefit fraud - wil he end up in prison?

[Gem86]

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

Dad went to court a few days ago, they were very nice to him and accomodating to his needs.

 

After talking it through with our solicitor he pleaded not guilty. Which means that it does have to go to Crown Court but not because they feel its that serious, apparently they have to if you plead not guilty; it's just procedure. It was advised because the solicitor feels that it was done by mistake.

 

I have calmed down a lot, I hope that the anxiety doesn't flare up again. But every one of our friends including our solicitor says that a prison sentence is highly unlikely, what with his mitigating circumstances and the fact that we're paying it back already.

 

My friend also pointed out that he's not actually being done for fraud but for possible dishonesty, I didn't know there was a difference, but apparently it's not as bad as the former, still not great, but if anyone can explain the difference?

 

He goes back to court on Febuary 4th. I'll keep you posted!

[honeybee13]

Hello again and a very merry Christmas to you too.

 

Thank you for letting us know how it went, I'm pleased it seems to be going in the right direction. I'm not an expert in court proceedings, but I know for a fare evasion case, for example, if someone pleads not guilty then it passes from the magistrates court to the crown court, as you say.

 

It's good that you're feeling better about things and I hope you've managed to enjoy Christmas.

 

My best, HB

[kk3852]

To make things clear about the dishonesty part....if your dad has been charged and the summons says that an offence under Section 112A of the Social Security Administration Act - they dont have to prove that dishonesty has been a part of the offence. Just that there was a failure to declare something.

 

If the charge is a Section 111A then they are looking at whether or not there was any deliberate dishonesty in not declaring something, this is a greater offence.

[Gem86]

Hello everyone I have an update.

 

Well as expected he was unfortunately found guilty, because he simply didn't have the proof to show that the man he spoke to all those years ago existed, all he had was an old address but since he and his wife had died and my father didn't know his children or where they are now, it just wasn't enough. Oh and it wasn't actually taken to crown court, they decided to have it at magistrates instead, not sure why they changed their minds on that but they did. They did not sentence him right away because "It would not be conducive" I'm wondering what they mean by that, I'm guessing a good sign?

 

The solicitor still maintains that a custodial sentence is unlikely because of his ill health, no prior convictions or gotten in any other trouble, and the fact that the council tax side is currently being consistently paid each month, that he has said on more than one occasion he fully intends to pay everything back, and if he did go to prison all his benefits would be stopped and therefore they would not get paid anything, and it seems like they do just want their money back.

 

Before he goes back to court for sentencing on March 1st, he has to see a probation officer to go through medical records, what money he has coming in and what other sort of debts - all needs to be seen, and to just check out my Dad's character, apparently they can advice judges on what sort of sentence would be best.

 

I can't help but think that although everyone says prison isn't likely, I'm really hoping that it doesn't happen, he really isn't a well man and he'd be beside himself if he were taken from his home, and so will we, it also wouldn't make any sense for them to do that other than to make an example, which would be cutting off their nose to spite their face in a way. Did you know it costs £40,000 A WEEK to send someone to prison? Plus he'd need taking care of due to his medication and would need his bandages on his legs every day.

 

I know they can't take his family into consideration since we're all adults, but for us it would also mean having to quickly find a new home since it's dad that gets housing. So we'd all be effected, in more ways than one.

[kk3852]

It would have been left in the Magistrates Court because the amount of £12k is well within the sentencing powers for that Court - benefit fraud cases are usually accepted by the Magistrates unless the amount involved is around £30k - £35k. They would not be able to deal with these amounts.

Unless someone pleads not guilty and elects trial at Crown Court it would not be sent up.

 

Magistrates almost always ask for pre-sentence reports before deciding on any punishment. This would be why he has to see a probation officer who will but a report to the Court relating his health issues and any other problems (could be anything - domestic abuse, debts.). The Court would have probably said that it would not be conducive to sentence him without this information.

 

It is highly unlikely that he will be sent to prison for this amount.

[seanamarts]

Thank you Gem for keeping us updated.

 

I am sure the courts would look up on leniency when sentencing your Dad.

 

I would imagine that they will take a certain amount out of his benefits until the debt is paid off.

[Gem86]

It would have been left in the Magistrates Court because the amount of £12k is well within the sentencing powers for that Court - benefit fraud cases are usually accepted by the Magistrates unless the amount involved is around £30k - £35k. They would not be able to deal with these amounts.

Unless someone pleads not guilty and elects trial at Crown Court it would not be sent up.

 

Magistrates almost always ask for pre-sentence reports before deciding on any punishment. This would be why he has to see a probation officer who will but a report to the Court relating his health issues and any other problems (could be anything - domestic abuse, debts.). The Court would have probably said that it would not be conducive to sentence him without this information.

 

It is highly unlikely that he will be sent to prison for this amount.

 

I see, thank you for clearing that up. I think the reason why we tend to think the worst is because we've had other things happen to us that have just seemed like something out of a TV drama so we sort of expect worst case scenario.

 

@seanamarts thank you, I think that would be the case as well, just hope that if the fine is big they won't want it all at once!

[Gem86]

Update: The other day myself and my dad went to see the probation officer. I think it went well - we talked in depth about finances, family issues etc...in the end she said to dad that because of no prior convictions there's not a lot of options they have in regards to punishment, however she didn't rule out prison, but mentioned about a possible curfew and tagging, and a fine. When she asked dad about prison he mentioned that it might finish him off in regards to his mental state, but is fully compliant with any other punishment going. They also know that it would mean the council would have to re-house us if he is sent down.

 

Although it was a good meeting I still fear the worst, I think that's due to my anxiety and depression, one thing that was embarrassing was that I couldn't keep from crying in front of her, I tried to control it but it just overwhelmed me.

[Guest]

I think its more than understandable that you cried, its a worrying, stressful, and emotional time for you both right now. I would guess she didn't rule out prison as she has no right to predict what a judge may or may not decide, as cant the solicitor, but it doesn't mean its a likely option.

 

Good luck with this and I hope it goes as well as it can. Please look after yourself also, your health is important. Your dad is a lucky man to have you.

[Gem86]

It's just so hard, I've now been put on anti-depressants because of this and because of other situations, like I don't feel like I dealt with mum's death very well.

 

I have good days and bad days, good days I feel a bit more positive of the situation and all my friends help, everyone we've spoken to feels that prison is unlikely, even you guys have said so. But it's convincing my mind that things will be alright, on bad days it just goes round and round in my head "what if everyone is wrong?" "what will I do if dad does go?" because he really won't handle it well, even for a short time. He's mentioned to me before, and mentioned to the probation officer, that life situations have made him feel like he wanted to take his own life, and what stops him is myself and my brother, this is something that scares me too. Then images of having to move again, dad being separated from us when he needs his family around him, he doesn't have a social life, he never goes out anywhere so most of the time he just has us. I fear things would spiral out of control.

[Gem86]

Hi everyone, sorry to keep you all waiting with any updates.

 

Well thankfully, he did not go to prison, however he did get a fine, a suspended sentence for 2 years (for a 12 week sentence) and a curfew with a tag for 3 months between the times of 10am and 4pm, which is awkward since his legs have gotten worse recently and is in need of seeing the nurse, and the doctors/nurses won't come out, we did get district nurses over and they said to make an appointment, which we tried to do but none were available and they were not going to come out, which is a major pain.

 

Despite that I am over the moon that he didn't get sent to prison.

 

I'd like to thank all of you for the advice given and I hope mine and my dad's situation is helpful to anyone else.

[jadeybags]

It's good he didn't go to prison (quite right too!) but I fail to see why the need for the tag!

[abc123def]

me neither, serves no purpose at all imo

[Guest]

Am so relieved for both of you that he didn't go to prison, and agree its rightly so that he didn't. The lack of medical care though isn't so good to hear about, hope that someone can help you there, is there not a nhs customer type service to contact? just my thoughts.

[seanamarts]

A tag!!!!, wtf are they playing at? What do they think he is going to do, abscond?

 

Im glad this is all over for you, but tagging is not for people like your father. totally a waste of time.

[assisted blonde]

If a tag was decided on it may be that there werte other factors that the OP didnt mention, the decision to tag somine isnt taken for no good reason

[Gem86]

I honestly have not left anything out, although I did not attend the actual court hearings so whether anything that was discussed there was left out I have no idea. My guess is that it was a fair amount of money over an even longer amount of time and they just saw him as someone that purposefully had done it.

 

He doesn't mind really, he was just thankful that it didn't come to what we were fearing. Now we just have to struggle to pay everything back, but we are getting by just.

 

And the Doctors/Nurses have finally got their act together and realized that he can't have appointments before 4pm, they're now taking care of his legs more seriously. He seems to be attending appointments to have new bandages and such every other day.