JSA Cancelled - Despite Never Receiving Letter Advising of New Appointment!

[benenglish]

Hello, I'd be grateful for some advice. I normally sign-on every 2 weeks and after last signing on 2 weeks ago (26th June), I went today to sign-on as usual for 11.20am.

 

After arriving, I am told by my personal advisor that they sent me a letter on the 28th June to turn-up on July 4th, saying I needed to sign-on weekly from now on -- and and since I did not attend on the date they said in the letter - July 3rd - and it has been 5 days, my claim has been closed !!!

 

However I never received any letter on the 28th June or at any other time since I last signed on!! - I check my post every morning when I go out to buy the milk and I absolutely never received any letter saying I needed to sign-on on July 3rd !!

 

This is a complete nightmare as I already had my claim closed down once before because I was sick 2 times in a year and did a rapid reclaim in February which went through -- but it took ages for housing benefit and council tax to be restarted and days lobbying the council to get it all sorted.

 

If I did not receive any letter how can they close my claim down? It seems ridiculous! I turned up at my scheduled appointment and even phoned first thing in the morning to say could I come early because I have a job interview today!!

 

I have now phoned up the Benefits Office (Glasgow) and they say they checked and Fulham closed my claim correctly and they can't do anything and I am to call and do a rapid reclaim or take it up with Fulham.

 

I have now phoned the rapid reclaim they said my claim has not fully closed so I have an appointment on Friday at the job center to sign some forms and provide ID etc.

 

My question --- is there any way I can stop this crazy process?? I never received any letter, signed on at my reguarlyl scheduled time, and yet they have closed my claim??

 

Many thanks

Yours most stressfully!

Ben

(worked 17 years, unemployed for the last 13 months only)

[Kevin Bolt]

Immediately inform Housing Benefit that during the time you were not in receipt of JSA that you had ZERO income so that you can receive HB & CTB on the grounds that you had ZERO income. It is for the HB dept to show that you had an income for that period if they want to disallow this claim, not for you to prove that you had no income ( it helps if you can provide proof).

[SWLABR9]

Is it really up to the council to prove you had income or is it up to you to prove you had none? What would count as proof during this period? I ask as next year claimants waiting for a reconsideration from the DWP regarding their failed ESA assessment won't be given any benefits to live on. Many of us will be needing to establish a lack of income and realistically it's impossible to do that IMHO. What will the council accept as proof of no income? I suspect establishing ID too will be a problem for many as how many longterm sick people have need of a driving license or a passport? I've got neither myself!

[Slatted]

Is it really up to the council to prove you had income or is it up to you to prove you had none? What would count as proof during this period? I ask as next year claimants waiting for a reconsideration from the DWP regarding their failed ESA assessment won't be given any benefits to live on. Many of us will be needing to establish a lack of income and realistically it's impossible to do that IMHO. What will the council accept as proof of no income? I suspect establishing ID too will be a problem for many as how many longterm sick people have need of a driving license or a passport? I've got neither myself!

 

I think I have missed this bit of news..since when have DWP said you cannot claim assessment rate by reclaiming ESA whilst awaiting an appeal? I know it not about the original thread but it is news to me.

[osdset]

I think I have missed this bit of news..since when have DWP said you cannot claim assessment rate by reclaiming ESA whilst awaiting an appeal? I know it not about the original thread but it is news to me

 

The new regs coming out next year will mean a mandatory reconsideration before appeal, there will be no time limit to the reconsideration and there is no benefit entitlement during the reconsideration.

[SWLABR9]

That's next year, now right now. They seem to have got it in under the radar. Consultation on it ended in May. It's a proposal but we've seen what happens to other proposals. IDS and Grayling have suggested that allowing people to claim benefits while they're waiting for a reconsideration and after that an appeal is a 'perverse incentive' to making an appeal. I'm sure I don't need to tell you what absolute nonsense that is. Sue Marsh has blogged about this if you want to go over what she's said on the subject.

[hensteeth]

That's next year, now right now. They seem to have got it in under the radar. Consultation on it ended in May. It's a proposal but we've seen what happens to other proposals. IDS and Grayling have suggested that allowing people to claim benefits while they're waiting for a reconsideration and after that an appeal is a 'perverse incentive' to making an appeal. I'm sure I don't need to tell you what absolute nonsense that is. Sue Marsh has blogged about this if you want to go over what she's said on the subject.

 

I've heard that too.

 

In a perverse way I can understand where they are coming from.

As it stands at the moment, as long as you put in an appeal you will get the same money as you would get from JSA, so there is no incentive to claim JSA.

If however, no money will be paid on reconsideration/appeal from next year if anybody wants some money they are going to have to sign on!

 

At the moment the appeal/reconsideration procedure can be abused by those who probably know that they won't win at a Tribunal yet see it as the 'soft' option. ESA claims at the moment are nothing more than a roundabout that when you get knocked off, you jump straight back onto it. This could go on for years!! Claim, fail, appeal, fail, claim, fail, appeal, fail..........!!

 

As regards the post itself, I can't see how anyone can win the argument. The DWP say it was posted yet the claimant says it was never received. In times gone by the ability to give the benefit of doubt in favour of the claimant was there for the DWP to use.

 

However, I do wonder how many times they hear that story when someone forgets to do something. It will have been abused so now the DWP are saying that it being posted is good enough to assume it was delivered. Not fair I know, but blame it on those that have taken the michael out of it in the past.

 

I know it doesn't help the poster, but they are going to have one big problem proving that it wasn't delivered!

 

Better to concentrate on getting the claim up and running again than arguing with the DWP.

Edited July 10, 2012 by hensteeth

[SWLABR9]

People who are genuinely ill won't be able to sign on. They won't be able to meet the conditions so they won't be eligible. As 40-80% of appeals succeed, we know many of these people will genuinely be ill,so ill they can't work. How can anybody reasonably be asked to survive without any income, let alone people who are ill enough to satisfy a tribunal? What are people supposed to live on?

[osdset]

The mandatory revision before appeal does not just effect ESA it applies to all benefits, so no one will have any means of support if they appeal. It's the governments underhand way of yet again stifling peoples right to fair process, with the curtailment of many aspects of legal aid as well, ordinary folk will be left with no options to fight back against a draconian system which has been engineered to enable benefit denial under the guise of reform.

[Slatted]

People who are genuinely ill won't be able to sign on. They won't be able to meet the conditions so they won't be eligible. As 40-80% of appeals succeed, we know many of these people will genuinely be ill,so ill they can't work. How can anybody reasonably be asked to survive without any income, let alone people who are ill enough to satisfy a tribunal? What are people supposed to live on?

 

If it were the other way around and a large number of appeals failed then that would make more sense but as it is now the inference is that appeals are merely a delaying tactic but evidence shows other wise so it is interesting that it could even be "proposed"...so another way people will end up in what is already the no mans land of benefits...to ill to work but to well to claim ESA.....as both benefits are administered by the same "side" so to speak it is an interesting scenario is it not....it seems odd that they do not sing from the same book when it comes to determining wether a person is fit to work...

[count orlok]

Lets hope that the Lords debacle breaks up the coalition and brings the government down. Although that said who's to say whoever gets in next is going to stop the dismantling of the welfare state.

[jacob18]

Well i have been told that i am not well enough to work but i can go out and work part time , and still get benefit , now i see why the government are soo pi$$$y. I understand people in wheelchairs need to have dla for transport etc ? but if you are not fit to claim esa then how is it justified that you can work 16 hours ? in a climate when that is all is available anyways ?

[SWLABR9]

There's more about the legislation here http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/695

[Nystagmite]

After arriving, I am told by my personal advisor that they sent me a letter on the 28th June to turn-up on July 4th, saying I needed to sign-on weekly from now on -- and and since I did not attend on the date they said in the letter - July 3rd - and it has been 5 days, my claim has been closed !!!

 

I am surprised that you weren't told in person at your last appointment that you had to sign on weekly.

[hensteeth]

People who are genuinely ill won't be able to sign on. They won't be able to meet the conditions so they won't be eligible. As 40-80% of appeals succeed, we know many of these people will genuinely be ill,so ill they can't work. How can anybody reasonably be asked to survive without any income, let alone people who are ill enough to satisfy a tribunal? What are people supposed to live on?

 

Quite honestly, given your scenarios, there could be problems ahead. Yet, if you look at it from another angle, the DWP one, they could well rightly say that a formal assessment has been carried out into the ability to work and have been found fit for work.

 

Given that they will use that argument, I presume they will then say that JSA is the way forward and that there are 'disability advisors' there to help, plus no doubt the Jobseekers Agreement can be formulated aroung the particular disability.

 

They seem to have it all covered.

 

In addition to that, for the life of me I could never understand why the assessment rate was paid after putting in an appeal given that the DWP have said that it is because the appeal is treated as a new claim. Errr how can you have a valid new claim if it is within 6 months of failing a previous ESA assessment? Unless of course if there is a deterioration or new illness involved. the two never really seemed to go together.

 

Still I am going off topic.

 

My advice is still the same to the poster - forget the argument - go and get your claim up and running asap.

[hensteeth]

Well i have been told that i am not well enough to work but i can go out and work part time , and still get benefit , now i see why the government are soo pi$$$y. I understand people in wheelchairs need to have dla for transport etc ? but if you are not fit to claim esa then how is it justified that you can work 16 hours ? in a climate when that is all is available anyways ?

 

There are many that do work 16 hours a week AND continue to claim ESA. Many go back to their old job, restrict their hours down to under 16, making sure that they do not go above the £100 a week barrier and still claim ESA having been assessed in some cases as totally unfit for work and being in the Support Group for up to 3 years!

[hensteeth]

There's more about the legislation here http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/695

 

Ah so, it is a done deal then?

 

If so, I do hope that those that take up the opportunity to claim JSA after being told they are fit for work receive their benefit in a timely manner.

 

I failed an ESA assessment, and took what I was told as gospel from the DWP and claimed JSA. The claim lasted all of one day as the Jobcentre contacted me and told me that I was too sick to look for a job!! As instructed, I submitted an appeal against the ESA decision and made a rapid ESA reclaim. That one day of messing about cost me many weeks (13th Jan - 18th May) of no money!! It was a nice bumper giro when I received it, and thankfully I had sufficient other monies coming in (private pensions etc) to help us survive.

[Slatted]

But what of those appealing decision from WRAG to Support? and what if the person is really ill and has support needs etc or and cannot make it to JCP for legitimate reasons and gets sanctioned anyway?.....they cannot claim ESA nor JSA (after the two weeks sick allowed each year has been used up, if they are still within the six months or whatever) and there are reportedly cases where they are deemed too ill to sign on even though WCA has said fit for work.....rock and hard place versus blinkered and no room for error?

 

Surely there has to be something to protect those whose appeals are justfied, especially where the evidence is that appeals are overturned a significant percentage of the time and even DWP have stated that WCA is currently not fit for purpose as it stands...as is backed up by BMA I gather....seems more a matter of trying to save money over common sense and being reasonable if you ask me.....

 

And potentially forcing a sick person to starve in the cold and with no access to any help, possibly not able to afford to get to hospital if needed because no money for taxi or petrol... is cruel and heartless and misguided and unfocussed and WRONG.....in my opinion....so much for the "welfare" element in legislation!!!

 

There are always going to be those who do not push themselves, do as little as they can, work the system etc but there are those who are genuinely ill and unable to look for full time, permanent work (and many who cannot consider any type of work at any time) and will find the need for a formal commitment on a weekly basis (i.e. the standard work contract) impossible due to the nature of their conditions...no matter what anyone might like to think.

 

And yes, again, the initial thread has been lost...is there any way they can be split? It seems the "proposal" is getting the interest too...

[SWLABR9]

What exactly is a rapid ESA reclaim? How do you do one of those please?

[benenglish]

Thank-you for everyone's replies and I will get onto my council about the HB and CT.

 

I am surprised that you weren't told in person at your last appointment that you had to sign on weekly.

 

Yes, I was VERY surprised as well... why send a letter two days after I've attended? I can't help thinking this is just them playing a numbers game to get their stats looking good.

 

I absolutely did not receive any letter - however I live in a block of flats where essentially all our mail is available to everyone else and perhaps someone picked up my letter by mistake .. but still, it's crazy that they don't email or phone or send anything critical like a change of appointment by registered post.

 

Is there any appeals process or is just a case of "tough luck" - now I need to wait and do a rapid restart?

 

I'm also worried because I've already had benefit suspended once this year (this was legitimate however) -- is there any chance they won't renew it once I ask for a restart?

 

Best regards

[flumps1976]

Please don't shoot me, can only advise based on what I do at work.

You attended to sign on the 26th as normal and an appointment was then booked and letter posted out on the 28th for the 4th July, so there would have been ample tiome for the letter to be received, unfortunately once the letter has left the JCP office it is the responsibility of Royal Mail to deliver the letter in a timeously manner.

If you have not had any problems with receiving your post from the JCP/DWP previously which has been recorded (e.g unsafe address or missing girocheque) then the decision was taken that it would be safe to assunme delivery of the letter and the claim was then subsequently closed after a period of 5 working days after the fail to attend.

 

You can request a reconsideration of the decision stating your reasons why you did not not attend the appointment but this will be passed to the BC to determine if benefit can be paid for the period in between your last payment and the date of your rapid reclaim.

[Nystagmite]

You either need to write a letter clearly stating that you're appealing, or fill in a GL24 form. You can get one of these from the job centre.

[san_d]

Yes, I was VERY surprised as well... why send a letter two days after I've attended? I can't help thinking this is just them playing a numbers game to get their stats looking good.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence or laziness. What has happened is the letter should have been handed out to you in person by the JC+ officer last time you signed for your benefit, but he/she forgot to do it and then realized the mistake and sent it over by post.

 

It happened to me a couple of times in the last 4 years, luckily all went well for me. When you send your request for reconsideration make sure you mentioned the fact it could and should have been handed to you in person.