Cap1 & CCA return

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

Just to clarify in pre 2005 agreements the prescribed terms do not have to be on the same page as the signature they do have to be within the same document but the signature box can be anywhere within the agreement.

 

The terms and conditions that are specified within schedule one of the regulations and contain the prescribed terms shoud be contained within the agreement and not on a seperrat document labled terms and conditions.

 

The agreement together with the terms itemised within the agreement regulations should be the ones that were current when the agreement was signed . Section 7 of the 1983/1557 copy of document regulations state that if their has been any varyation of the agreement these should be enclosed together with the agreement in the form of itemised information or a copy of the varied t and c;s but this is in addition to the ones contained within the agreement not in place of.

 

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

thanks or all your help so far:)

 

Sorry, i am getting a bit lost now, doesnt take much

 

The application was picked up in branch, taken away, filled in and signed at home then the next day dropped back into branch and they told her to wait while details were input, we didnt get any other details from them just the card through the door a few weeks later, she wasnt informed of credit limit at time or nything like that, dont know if that makes any difference??

 

Its not that we are trying to get out of paying it, but we are finding money VERY tight and nationwide are not being very helpful or understanding, all we want to do is find out if they can "legally" enforce the debt or if we are in control of it!

Sorry for all the questions

 

Sytra

HI

Sorry to barge in

but this would make the agreement cancellable as the fact that the unsigned document was picked up from the creditors premises will count as being anticedant negotiations.

The dates of the signatures being 1 day apart would seem to prove that it was not signed at thier premises so you could also go for a section 64 /127 unenforceability .

 

Best regard

Peter

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi

 

Got this reponce from T/S regarding a RBS agreemeent with all the prescribed terms on but is computer stored/scanned. IMOA they do not have the original agreement. Also had no T&C with the agreement.

 

I have been in touch with the T/S in Edinburgh and we believe that the scanned copy is a sufficent copy of the agreement and therefore we will not be pursuing any criminal offences in relation to this as we do not feel it will be in the publics intrest to persue the matter formally.

 

 

This is what we are up against. No mention about the lack of T&C.

 

Any ideas what to do next??

 

HAK

[shane5408]

Hi HAK,

 

can you post a copy of it so we can take a look.

 

regards,

shane

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi Shane

 

The link is below.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/109294-rbs-responce-cca-something.html

 

HAK

[sytra]

HI

Sorry to barge in

but this would make the agreement cancellable as the fact that the unsigned document was picked up from the creditors premises will count as being anticedant negotiations.

The dates of the signatures being 1 day apart would seem to prove that it was not signed at thier premises so you could also go for a section 64 /127 unenforceability .

 

Best regard

Peter

 

so what would you all think is our best approach to this? do we write back to NW and tell em that we will not be paying? not do anything till their 30 days are up, then write to them? do we even acknowledge the CCA, if so what do we say?

 

Sorry to be a pain

 

Sytra

[paulwlton]

Approved.

 

 

[the main man]

It's funny how RBS think that by not producing the agreement within 30 days that they would be breaking the law, but go onto say that recreating 250k of document is " thinking under pressure"... more like fraud to me!

 

It may well be that the OFT are happy with this practise, but like you say a judge may take a different view.

 

What does P&G stand for?

[hellhasnofury]

Hello Guys,

 

Sorry probably a bit off topic,

 

I have an on-going dispute with a ????very reputable company, who are in extremely serious default of the ca request.

Well this morning I received it, Unfortunately it was somebody elses not mine. It does contain very personal details though, so I might just be writing to that poor person, informing of this serious breach of the DPA. Oh and who I wonder has mine???????

 

They beggar belief, they just jump from the frying pan and into the fire and they don't need any help to do this.

[Peterbard]

Hi

It is not tfor RBS the OFT or the TS to seccond guess and re write what it says in legislation this is a giant confidence trick that is is being purpetuated by the so called regularatory bodies and is completely unsupported by legistaion.

IMO this should be challenged at every opportunity below is a letter i have used on occasion i hpe you find it useful.

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above but have failed to supply the tems and conditions,which are an intrigal part of the contract.

I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the act and that your company is still in default and also is in breach of the act.

 

To clarify:

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.”

This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy; (b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

In Addition

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

 

If your contention that current a set of conditions will suffice is based on section 7 of the copy of document regulations I will clarify this also for you

 

"7.--(1) Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either- (a) an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement which has been varied; or

(b) an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in accordance with section 82( 1) of the Act"

 

The highlightesd section clearly idicates that this infomation is required in additon to the orriginal terrms and conditions contained within the executed agreement and not in place of them.

I am sure that you are aware that the ability to vary a document is dependant upon the permission given by the debtor in the signature document,and this would therefore need to be shown.

 

To reiterate all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and and the regulations are explicit in the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

 

 

Bestre Regards

peter

[paulwlton]

As anyone got a link to this judgment

 

(Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119)

 

 

[Curlyben]

Hows this Paul

Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society - [1996] 4 All ER 119.pdf

[patrickq1]

EFFECTIVE July 27 , 2007

 

NEW OFFICE POLICY

 

Dress Code:

 

1) You are advised to come to work dressed according to your salary.

 

2) If we see you wearing Prada shoes and carrying a Gucci bag, we will assume you are doing well financially and therefore do not need a raise.

 

3) If you dress poorly, you need to learn to manage your money better, so that you may buy nicer clothes, and therefore you do not need a raise.

 

4) If you dress just right, you are right where you need to be and therefore you do not need a raise.

 

 

 

Sick Days:

We will no longer accept a doctor's statement as proof of sickness. If you are able to go to the doctor, you are able to come to work.

 

Personal Days:

Each employee will receive 104 personal days a year. They are called Saturdays & Sundays.

 

Bereavement Leave:

This is no excuse for missing work. There is nothing you can do for dead friends, relatives or co-workers. Every effort should be made to have non-employees attend the funeral arrangements in your place. In rare cases where employee involvement is necessary, the funeral should be scheduled in the late afternoon. We will be glad to allow you to work through your lunch hour and subsequently leave one hour early.

 

 

 

Bathroom Breaks:

Entirely too much time is being spent in the toilet. There is now a strict three-minute time limit in the stalls. At the end of three minutes, an alarm will sound, the toilet paper roll will retract, the stall door will open, and a picture will be taken. After your second offense, your picture will be posted on the company bulletin board under the "Chronic Offenders" category. Anyone caught smiling in the picture will be sectioned under the company's mental health policy.

 

 

 

Lunch Break: (Love this one)

 

* Skinny people get 30 minutes for lunch, as they need to eat more, so that they can look healthy.

 

* Normal size people get 15 minutes for lunch to get a balanced meal to maintain their average figure.

 

* Chubby people get 5 minutes for lunch, because that's all the time needed to drink a Slim-Fast.

 

 

 

Thank you for your loyalty to our company. We are here to provide a positive employment experience. Therefore, all questions, comments, concerns, complaints, frustrations, irritations, aggravations, insinuations, allegations, accusations, contemplations, consternation and input should be directed elsewhere

[paulwlton]

Hows this Paul

 

 

You're a star

[patrickq1]

hi everyone i am back after my double by pass operation stitches are to come out after dinner so should be back soon to pester everyone just thought i would add some humor to the thread

patrickq1

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Thanks Peter for the advice.

 

Will write a letter this week and post it on here for second opinion.

 

Will have to write it to T/S as RBS just keep saying the matter is closed.

 

HAK

[sytra]

so what would you all think is our best approach to this? do we write back to NW and tell em that we will not be paying? not do anything till their 30 days are up, then write to them? do we even acknowledge the CCA, if so what do we say?

 

Sorry to be a pain

 

Sytra

 

Any help please..

[elsinore]

Peter, can you make some space in your PM box please

 

Els

[spiritgirl59]

hi everyone i am back after my double by pass operation stitches are to come out after dinner so should be back soon to pester everyone just thought i would add some humor to the thread

patrickq1

 

Hi Patrick

 

I loved it

 

Hope you are soon feeling much much better after your op.

 

Best wishes to you

Love Spiritgirl x

[paulwlton]

Am i right in saying the creditor must include the debtors address in order to comply fully with a CCA 77 request,

 

The regs do allow the creditor to omitt the debtors address on unexecuted agreements under sec 62.

 

Paul

[shane5408]

Am i right in saying the creditor must include the debtors address in order to comply fully with a CCA 77 request,

 

The regs do allow the creditor to omitt the debtors address on unexecuted agreements under sec 62.

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

are you referring to a post contractual CCA request or a situation where the creditor under s62 sends the debtor a copy of the unexecuted agreement with the intention of having the debtor sign it?

 

regards,

shane

[maybelline]

hi everyone i am back after my double by pass operation stitches are to come out after dinner so should be back soon to pester everyone just thought i would add some humor to the thread

patrickq1

 

good to see you back patrickq1, speedy recovery! (though you sound like you are raring to go - very funny dress code, already in place)

[paulwlton]

Hi Paul,

 

are you referring to a post contractual CCA request or a situation where the creditor under s62 sends the debtor a copy of the unexecuted agreement with the intention of having the debtor sign it?

 

regards,

shane

 

Yes, it's my reading that the creditor's adress may be omitted under sec 62 but not sec77.

[shane5408]

Yes, it's my reading that the creditor's adress may be omitted under sec 62 but not sec77.

 

Hi Paul,

 

I agree, though I haven't had a chance to check the ammendments. It seems the Regs (Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983) make no mention of guidelines the creditor has to adhere to when supplying a copy of an unexecuted agreement to the debtor under a s77,78 request, meaning they cannot hide behhind the omissions stated in 3(2). It clearly says they are only applicable with regard to executed agreements.

 

Would like to hear Peters view on this

 

regards,

shane

[Peterbard]

Am i right in saying the creditor must include the debtors address in order to comply fully with a CCA 77 request,

 

The regs do allow the creditor to omitt the debtors address on unexecuted agreements under sec 62.

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul

Yes section 62 allows for this because it may be an agreemnt picked up from a bank or somewhere and would of course not have your address on it.

However All other copies including the post contracual ones supplied by virtue of section 77-78 should conform to the regulations exept for the debtors signature box.Schedule 1 section 2(1+2) says that both names and addresses should be included

 

Best regards

Peter