Cap1 & CCA return

[patrickq1]

hi peter just had a look at knights thread looks more like an aplication but no t & c also did not know rfizel had a bank its a weird one worth a look,i think this is what they sent kngt when cca,just looks really odd more like an aplication

patrickq1

[WormHasTurned]

I’ve just had a response to my CCA request to Tesco Personal Finance. (It’s got their code TPFC LTR 06/02)

 

“….Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about your entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

Your written request for information made under s78(1) of the consumer credit act must be accompanied by payment fee of £1 (it was) We are obliged to provide you with a ‘true’ copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely the state of account, amount currently due, and amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the ‘true’ copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

 

I have enclosed the s78(1) information.

 

OK this is what I got:

• A photocopy of a BLANK application form – each side 5 pages of A5 – reduced to 20% of its original size so it fits onto 2 pages of A4 – so totally unreadable.

• Four easy-to-read photocopied A4 pages about the benefits – e.g. clubcard points, PPI, balance transfers, APR.

• A copy of my current statement.

• A copy of General Conditions dated 05/07.

The letter then went on: “With regards to your request for a statement of account (I didn’t ask for that) I have enclosed the most recent available statement for the above account. Should you require duplicate statements of your account prior to this date, please contact me accordingly and I will advise you of the cost of these.

 

Our records show that there is still a balance outstanding on the above account. As you are aware, your account is being managed by our debt recovery department. Therefore you should contact them directly to obtain details of your required payments to settle your account …. I trust the above clarifies matters for you. Should you have any further queries, please contact me on ..

 

Comments / suggestions anyone?

 

The blank photocopy is too small to read.

 

To be fair to Tesco they accepted reduced payments last year when my circumstances changed. (OK I've been defaulted and interest has stopped)

 

They recently wrote about me increasing payments which is when I sent off the CCA request.

[patrickq1]

you do not need to an increased payment structure,if they have already agreed a payment plan they are obliged to accept this and if you can afford the agreed payment plan just keep paying it as usual,if you have missed a couple of payments but informed them you are finding this difficult to meet you cvan ask for a revision downwards,as for the copies sent to you it must be legdible (cant spell)format but if you are patient someone on here who is far more experianced than myself will be able to guide you through the correct legal procedures but dont panic others on here will help

patrickq1

[patrickq1]

missed out a bit as in you do not need to agree to

[Curlyben]

Worm, a BLANK application form NEVER complies with CCA and is totally unenforceable. If it doesn't even have any of your details how on earth can it relate to you ?!?!

What reasons did they give for this response ?

[patrickq1]

thanks curly

[patrickq1]

also if you go back one page and follow this

Hi Patrick

I think this is a very good question

When does a varyation of the agreement become a modified agreemnt and at what point is the agreement said to be alterred to such an extent that it bears no resemblance to the one you signed.

It is all very well for creditors to send out notices of variations in order to comply with section 82 of the act but what happens if you don't agree with those variations and can't afford to pay off the ballance of your account and teminate it,in short your stuffed.

I recieved a schedule of changes to a MBNA ageement for a credit card yesterday .

The ammendments to the T and Ca included altering the way the interest was applied and amongst many others a clause saying " If we cannot enforce any paragraph or part of a paragraph under this agreement ,it will not efect any other paragraphs,conditions or the other part of the paragraph or condition in this agreement."

Is this code for if they cannot enforce a default for some reason they will still be able to enforce the data sharing option and how many other sections wil it apply to.

Altogether ther are 12 "variations" like this on the agreement.

Surely their must be some mechanism where these can be challenged otherwise we really are at the creditors mecy.

i have used possibly the repugnance rule but found that under undue influence this may have some effect in what was discussed if you have an opinion would be apreciated

patrickq1

[paulwlton]

I’ve just had a response to my CCA request to Tesco Personal Finance. (It’s got their code TPFC LTR 06/02)

 

“….Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about your entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

Your written request for information made under s78(1) of the consumer credit act must be accompanied by payment fee of £1 (it was) We are obliged to provide you with a ‘true’ copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely the state of account, amount currently due, and amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the ‘true’ copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

 

I have enclosed the s78(1) information.

 

OK this is what I got:

• A photocopy of a BLANK application form – each side 5 pages of A5 – reduced to 20% of its original size so it fits onto 2 pages of A4 – so totally unreadable.

• Four easy-to-read photocopied A4 pages about the benefits – e.g. clubcard points, PPI, balance transfers, APR.

• A copy of my current statement.

• A copy of General Conditions dated 05/07.

The letter then went on: “With regards to your request for a statement of account (I didn’t ask for that) I have enclosed the most recent available statement for the above account. Should you require duplicate statements of your account prior to this date, please contact me accordingly and I will advise you of the cost of these.

 

Our records show that there is still a balance outstanding on the above account. As you are aware, your account is being managed by our debt recovery department. Therefore you should contact them directly to obtain details of your required payments to settle your account …. I trust the above clarifies matters for you. Should you have any further queries, please contact me on ..

 

Comments / suggestions anyone?

 

The blank photocopy is too small to read.

 

To be fair to Tesco they accepted reduced payments last year when my circumstances changed. (OK I've been defaulted and interest has stopped)

 

They recently wrote about me increasing payments which is when I sent off the CCA request.

 

It's obvious there is no signed agreement, catalogue companys try this tactic. I would write back and request them to supply a "true copy" bearing you signature,

[Peterbard]

I’ve just had a response to my CCA request to Tesco Personal Finance. (It’s got their code TPFC LTR 06/02)

 

“….Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about your entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

Your written request for information made under s78(1) of the consumer credit act must be accompanied by payment fee of £1 (it was) We are obliged to provide you with a ‘true’ copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely the state of account, amount currently due, and amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of CCA copy document regulations, the ‘true’ copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.

 

I have enclosed the s78(1) information.

 

OK this is what I got:

• A photocopy of a BLANK application form – each side 5 pages of A5 – reduced to 20% of its original size so it fits onto 2 pages of A4 – so totally unreadable.

• Four easy-to-read photocopied A4 pages about the benefits – e.g. clubcard points, PPI, balance transfers, APR.

• A copy of my current statement.

• A copy of General Conditions dated 05/07.

The letter then went on: “With regards to your request for a statement of account (I didn’t ask for that) I have enclosed the most recent available statement for the above account. Should you require duplicate statements of your account prior to this date, please contact me accordingly and I will advise you of the cost of these.

 

Our records show that there is still a balance outstanding on the above account. As you are aware, your account is being managed by our debt recovery department. Therefore you should contact them directly to obtain details of your required payments to settle your account …. I trust the above clarifies matters for you. Should you have any further queries, please contact me on ..

 

Comments / suggestions anyone?

 

The blank photocopy is too small to read.

 

To be fair to Tesco they accepted reduced payments last year when my circumstances changed. (OK I've been defaulted and interest has stopped)

 

They recently wrote about me increasing payments which is when I sent off the CCA request.

 

HI

tHey reallyare arrogant B**ds

 

I would send them this

 

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify:

 

On the 29th of December 2006 in response query Ian McCartney MP replied to a letter in his then role as minister for the department of Trade and Industry he stated this, “Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and Conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form. Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement”

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.”

This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

 

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

Best regards

Peter

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Worm

 

You are not on your own eith these RBS clowns.

It seems to be the standard letter by Ms Bennitt.

 

Ive reported them to T/S for exactly the same as above so will let you know the outcome.

HAK

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Peter

 

I keep getting confused with the T&C.

 

Just to clear things up:

 

The original T&C have to be sent with the Agreement and they cant be on a seperate paper they have to be on the signature page.

 

Is this correct

 

HAK

[Peterbard]

Hi

Terms and conditions are a mixture of all the requirement of the agreement included in the various schedules contained within the regulaions plus any additional conditons that are unique to the creditors opperating policies.

Thes are usually sent allong with the cancellation details under section 63 of the act.

 

These are not to be confused with the terms and conditions mentioned as being contained within the agreement.

When a section 77 is requesed you are asking for a complete copy of your orriginal executed agreement this should contain within it all the affore mentioned terms and conditions.

 

It is probobly correct for the creditor to say that they can send a copy of your agreement and a set of current T and c's, but this is in addition to the orriginal ones contained within the contract not in place of them this is where they try to pull the wool over our eyes and unfortunately the trading standards are either to ill informed or just don't care enough to do anything about it.

 

Best regards

Peter

[Having_A_Knightmare]

all the affore mentioned terms and conditions.

 

Are these the prescribed terms?

 

HAK

[Peterbard]

HI

Have a look on my agreement enforceability thread there is a list on there of all items to be contained within the signature document.

The prescribed terms are contained within schedule one of the regulations which in turn should be contained within the signature document (agreement),that is not to say on the same page as the signature but recognisable as being within the same document.

 

Yes the prescribed terms should be within the terms and conditions of the agreement.

Also have a look at my recent posting on the same thread regarding prescribed terms.

 

Best regards

 

Peter

[WormHasTurned]

Thanks everyone.

 

As the photocopy application form Tesco sent me is far too small to read - (must be 1/5 it's normal size) - I am going to first write back and ask for a legibile document.

 

Then once I'm sure what the document contains I can follow up on people's advice or post further info.

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Worm

 

Have a look at my thread it may give you a few pointers.

 

HAK

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/109294-rbs-responce-cca-something.html

[Minney]

Hi Peter,

Sorry to bother you again hun but did you manage to have a look at this for me;) I do appreciate that your a very busy person on this thread;)

 

Thank you!

 

Minney.x

Hiya, just giving this a little bump up;)

[car2403]

Great thread! I'm yet to read it all, though.

 

I'm facing Court action from HFC Bank after CCA'ing them on 2 accounts and they failed to provide 1 of the agreements (about £1000 balance) which is now unenforceable and the Court action seems to be their retaliation to that with the other agreement. I don't think it contains the prescribed terms, but I'd appreciate some advice either in reply to this post or on my thread, found here;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/data-protection-default-issues/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default.html#post1107155

 

I've just acknowledged the Court Claim and don't really want to rely on Citizen's Advice - there's clearly more expert opinion on this forum, but sadly not in the Default sub-forum?

[manjusha]

would be better to explain who what and where,and what t&c s you are working of more explaination would help before comments thanks

patrickq1

 

Hello Patrick1

 

Sorry for the delay. I don't think I have enough material or grounds to start a thread on this one, but am looking for some urgent advice. I have a Sky Credit Card, that along with other creditors, got into arrears last year. Bereavement of next of kin, had to go to India, lost my job etc. Anyway, early in March I agreed to a payment plan. They then terminated my account, I have continued to pay the £50 per month. I receive statements from Sky every month saying I have x amount available to spend. When I queried it with them, they said its the way their system works & even though the statements say that I have available credit, the account has been closed! I really didn't care as long as they didn't add any interest. The £600 balance has been halfed now. The Payment Plan ends next month. But I received a letter last week to say that when the Payment Plan ends, unless I prove otherwise, they will assume that my financial situation has changed and that I can afford my minimum payments. This will be calculated according to the T& C . I rang them to say that's fine by me as long as the card is still valid. I am not intending to use the credit facility but in order to do some credit repair I need to have this credit card live & running. That way I can maintain payments & improve my credit ratings. Paying minimum payments works in my advantage any way as that would only be around £20 per month in contrast to the £50 that I am paying now. But to my shock I was told that when the payment plan ends & they start adding contractual interest etc the credit facility will still not be allowed. In other words, the account will remain closed.

 

My query is can they do this? How can they add contractual interest on a closed account yet disallow the credit facility? Isn't that unfair to the debtor? They said to me that they have not terminated the agreement only terminated the account. How is that possible? The contract says they provide me credit account & I will pay contractual interest. Not interest without the credit?

 

I have been asked to write in to complain if I need to, but don't know what grounds to base my complaint on.

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

[MoonHawk]

Hi Manjusha,

 

A couple of questions to help clarify this:

 

1) When did the account start?

2) Did they defsult the account when you went into arrears?

3) Do you have it in writing that the account is "closed"?

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[manjusha]

Hello MoonHawk

 

The account was opened in 2005

 

As far as I remember, they have not defaulted me. I did get payment reminder letters. This has never been passed on to a DCA.

 

They did sent me a letter to say account is closed & asked me to return the card to them. This was when the payment plan was set up.

 

Hope this helps. Thanks for your time.

[car2403]

Hello Patrick1

 

Sorry for the delay. I don't think I have enough material or grounds to start a thread on this one, but am looking for some urgent advice. I have a Sky Credit Card, that along with other creditors, got into arrears last year. Bereavement of next of kin, had to go to India, lost my job etc. Anyway, early in March I agreed to a payment plan. They then terminated my account, I have continued to pay the £50 per month. I receive statements from Sky every month saying I have x amount available to spend. When I queried it with them, they said its the way their system works & even though the statements say that I have available credit, the account has been closed! I really didn't care as long as they didn't add any interest. The £600 balance has been halfed now. The Payment Plan ends next month. But I received a letter last week to say that when the Payment Plan ends, unless I prove otherwise, they will assume that my financial situation has changed and that I can afford my minimum payments. This will be calculated according to the T& C . I rang them to say that's fine by me as long as the card is still valid. I am not intending to use the credit facility but in order to do some credit repair I need to have this credit card live & running. That way I can maintain payments & improve my credit ratings. Paying minimum payments works in my advantage any way as that would only be around £20 per month in contrast to the £50 that I am paying now. But to my shock I was told that when the payment plan ends & they start adding contractual interest etc the credit facility will still not be allowed. In other words, the account will remain closed.

 

My query is can they do this? How can they add contractual interest on a closed account yet disallow the credit facility? Isn't that unfair to the debtor? They said to me that they have not terminated the agreement only terminated the account. How is that possible? The contract says they provide me credit account & I will pay contractual interest. Not interest without the credit?

 

I have been asked to write in to complain if I need to, but don't know what grounds to base my complaint on.

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

I've had the same issue with Barclaycard. (Also don't think there's enough info for a new thread!)

 

I paid 3 x monthly payments via the CCCS. (Due to another creditor not accepting my version of my income and expense report, but that's another story)

 

As soon as they received confirmation a third party was paying, Barclaycard reduced the credit limit to my balance and prevented me using the card.

 

I made payments after this (and the CCCS payments met the minimum payment required for those 3 months) in accordance with T&C's, still applying interest - when the account reached £0.00, they closed it and refused to open it again as "the collections team closed the account 2 years ago" but failed to tell/communicate that to me.

 

I've looked at their T&C's and can find nothing to suggest they can't do this, so I'll be interested to hear the answer to this one too.

[patrickq1]

yes i think you would need to post your agreement on here for some to look at,with regards to them closing the financial facitity you more than likely will find this a norm as they are keeping the agreement/contract open in order for you to bring the balance down and possibly clear then they may put you on a reduced limit allowed something like 250,and like moon asked have they defaulted your account ,and what sort of information have they sent you concerning the closure of the credit facility,sorry to hear of you family problems...hope things are ok now

aslo did you have ppi insurance on the card,and what penalties do you have to date because of this lapse

patrickq1

[patrickq1]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/106950-what-do-if-your.html

[manjusha]

Hi

 

I haven't got the credit agreement. Should I CCA them? I have a couple of letters that I have scanned on to my pc but don't know how to post it on here. Have tried copying & pasting but that doesn't work.

I haven't got all the statements so don't know how much they have charged me as penalty charges. May be I should do a SAR as well?

 

Thanks for the link. Did read through but that relates to bank accounts being closed. This is a credit card. Also, I am still uncertain as to if they can close close account and yet add contractual interest.

 

Thanks for your patience