Ingeus

[gil_jnr]

Optimist Prime

I think I may know why they are 'leaning' on you, it's probably sour grapes over your unwillingness to comply with the data waiver, CV, etc, this is the other side of the coin that people face when sicking up for their rights, the pimps get ever so upset and basically throw the book at you.

 

Yep. My recent 'threat' as mentioned previously, was a sanction of NI contributions if I started a job but refused to sign the employer waiver to allow collection of the outcome payments.

 

As you've not signed the employer waiver, you could provide them with all the application and contact details asked for, but there's nothing they can do to confirm with the employer you have applied. As you're also recording all your meetings, you have the potential to trip them up and have them slapped with a £5000 fine from the ICE for a complaint of a breach of the data protection act with an audio recording as evidence.

 

Perhaps we could all do our bit to ruin their profit margin.

[Bakatcha]

I am not sure you're right flumps.

Any action plan does not alter the terms of your job seeker's agreement. You are under no obligation to agree to or sign any action plan though the pimps like you to because they believe it makes you feel you've "bought in" to the plan.

I have an action plan but I have never been asked by the JCP to see the action plan - just as well really as the pimp has never given me a copy.

I am sure the JCP would love to know what the pimps are up to (or not up to in a lot of cases) since it is JCP jobs that are being threatened by the pimps' takeover of W2W - reducing the JCP and the public sector to mere administrators of benefit.

[osdset]

It's past time for some definition here, claimants should be informed prior to the mandated work placement, exactly what will be expected of them, and what sanctions can be applied to them, coupled with what the claimant can expect the pimps to do for them.

If the rules are laid out in plain sight for all to see then there can be no 'grey areas'.

[flumps1976]

Bakatcha, I work in the customer service part of JCP completing various duties, signing, claim closures to name but two parts I read the guidance and I'm sorry to say that the work programme providers can and do change yur job goals. They do complete action plans in the area that I work in and we do have sight of them, the argument for changing your job goals is (not my opinion but what is banded around by the work programme providers when I speak to them) is that if yyou haven't found work in your chosen field by the time you reach them then you are expected to be applying for all jobs you are qualified and capable of doing.

The JSAg at the JCP will not be updated at the JCP office whilst you are at the work programme as they become you advisers so the JSAg is effectively out of date after 3 months which is where the providers have the authority to change your job goals after a 3 month period and then however frequently they feel it needs reviewing but should always be at least every 3 months.

Unfortunately the vast majority of providers bid for the contracts thinking it would be very lucrative but have failed to realise exactly what they signed up to deliver to their customers.

[Bakatcha]

@glumps

I bow to your superior knowledge on the JSAg point.

Does this mean that the Action Plan effectively replaces the JSAg?

Does the JCP see any action plans - I mean are they provided to the JCP by the pimps? I've never been asked by anyone at the JCP to see my action plan. I couldn't show them it if they did since I haven't been given a copy!

[flumps1976]

Yes the action plan replaces the JSAg and the providers are supposed to issue the action plan to the customer. It should be provided at the fornightly signing to allow the signing team to establish what the customer has been required to do throughout the fornight period to estanlish that the customer can be marked as actively seeking and available to take work as per the conditions of entitlement to claim and receive JSA.

The JCP can contact the providers if there is reason to doubt a customers declaration to determine what the customer was required to do if the customer cannot provide proof.

We had to give our providers a huge kick up the derriere to remind tem of the responsibilities of the contract their HO signed.

 

Realistically how can the signing team mark your LMS record correctly to show that you have met the requirement set by your providers (action plan in lieu of the outdated JSAg) and update JSAPs to release payment if they have nothing to work with.

 

Sorry if it sounded like I was being a know it all but working for JCP we have been having the weekly meetings and dscussing at length the failures and issues of the providers so it is fresh in my mind and is becoming high profile especially the areas that the providers are failing to meet the contracts.

It is just as infuriating reading these posts knowing that so much is going wrong, but we have also been told to let the providers hang themjselves so that the Government hopefully get the message that it isn't working, but it's like the ATOS situation they won't listen

[osdset]

Flumps

 

I take it you have been told to let the providers hang themselves by your upper management, which is OK in theory. but Grayling apart from stating that he will weed out the non performers, is still committed to the concept, so they are not going away anytime soon, the government seems likely to stick with ATOS and w2w, even where fraud and misconduct has been alleged as is the case with one of the providers, I'm sure Grayling & co are fully aware that the system is not fit for purpose, the issue is, do they actually care? We all pretty much know the answer to that question.

 

What sickens me is that even when the ConDems are kicked out of government whoever takes over will not be about to change the austerity measures put in place, we will have come too far along the road, and TBH we don't have any serious challenge to this government, Labour ceased to be 'The Labour Party' years ago, the LIbDems are just an adjunct to the conservatives, UKIP, and UNITE stand little chance of gaining any headway, the only thing that we can do is keep chipping away at injustice, and subverting the system wherever possible, make life intolerable for those that would grind us into the dirt.

[flumps1976]

Yep the contracts are up to 2016 for the providers in place, but if they fail to provide what they promised they won't automatically be renewed and maybe they won't want to be if it is actually determined that they have to deliver what is promised, don't forget their initial fee for taking customers reduces soon and eventually dwindles to nothing so they are only going to be paid for results.

[Optimist Prime]

... their initial fee for taking customers reduces soon and eventually dwindles to nothing so they are only going to be paid for results.

 

That is whats most frightening, I'm assuming 'results' doesn't just mean getting someone into work, but getting them 'off' benefits. If they have a client they think is unlikely to gain employment I have no doubt they would use unscrupulous methods for applying sanctions in order to get those 'results' and the most vulnerable people are going to be sitting ducks.

Its quite disgusting that the JCP are taking a back seat and giving them enough rope to hang themselves, how many people are going really suffer at the hands of these reptiles in the mean time?

[osdset]

That is whats most frightening, I'm assuming 'results' doesn't just mean getting someone into work, but getting them 'off' benefits. If they have a client they think is unlikely to gain employment I have no doubt they would use unscrupulous methods for applying sanctions in order to get those 'results' and the most vulnerable people are going to be sitting ducks.

Its quite disgusting that the JCP are taking a back seat and giving them enough rope to hang themselves, how many people are going really suffer at the hands of these reptiles in the mean time?

What generally happens with the clients who are unlikely to find employment or are awkward, is the pimps 'park them' in other words shove 'em into a corner somewhere and forget about them until their sentence is served, that gives the pimps more time to place the rest into some kind of work, they do actually have to place people in jobs to get the full payback from the DWP, or pretend that they have and fiddle the system.

[flumps1976]

No the results they are paid for are only helping people get back to work and the payments increase the longer a person remains in employment.

If they can "help" someone in a more challenging group return to work (e.g someone who has been on ESA/Incapacity benefits long term) then rewards increase significantly.

They are not paid if people move away from JSA etc into other benefits or disappear from the system completely.

[Masso]

@flumps1976

 

I have a rapid-reclaim appointment on Wednesday. My local Job Centre accepted my reasons for ending the Job early and have agreed to pay me.

 

You’ve probably read my previous posts regarding my Personal Licence and Ingeus? Well, I know I’m assigned to Ingeus for a 2 years period, but what happens next?...

 

Will my Job Centre contact Ingeus, or am I expected to contact them myself? Should I take my withdrawal of consent letter with me to my appointment, to highlight the reasons/problems I had with Ingeus before I signed off?

 

Cheers,

Rick

[flumps1976]

When you attemd the rapid reclaim you will be given a letter detailing that you ae still under he 2 year contract with your provider and further paperwork will be sent to the provider to confirm that you have reclaimed so that they can re-enagae with you and set up the meetings again.

 

Discuss with the adviser the problems you had previously but I can't advise about withdrawing of consent etc as I'm not a personal adviser and do not have dealing with the work proramme referrals.

[Masso]

further paperwork will be sent to the provider to confirm that you have reclaimed so that they can re-enagae with you and set up the meetings again.

Well, if Ingeus want to contact me then fair enough. They’ve never contacted me since I started my previous job, so I will wait and see…

 

Cheers,

Rick

[flumps1976]

no problem

[omskus]

Good news - I hopefully have a job - awaiting contract - hopefully it wont fall through for any reason. I'll need your help for signing off ensuring they don't get paid.

 

Bad news - that could take a few weeks and I've just been sent a letter stating that I attended the work programme but failed to participate in it. They've asked me to answer some questions or I'll be sanctioned (I obviously need money to continue my job search in case that contract does not come through). Can you guys help me answer them in the best way possible?

 

1) Why did I not provide the provider with ID to prove your right to work?

2) Why did I not sign the Data Protection Consent form?

3) Why did I not let the provider keep or copy my CV?

 

As I understand the above questions are on pretty dodgy ground and I could probably fight them on the basis of the questions.

 

My answers at present are

 

1) I gave the provider my signing on card, referral letter and even let them see my bank card.

2) As per my legal rights I do not need consent to the data protection consent form

3) I am only required to show the provider I have a CV and legally am not required to let them hold or duplicate my CV.

 

What do you think of my answers and how could I answer them better. I understand even if I give them the correct answers they are likely to try to sanction me.

[Bakatcha]

Ok omskus

Who is "they"? Is it the JCP or the pimp?

Assuming the latter:

I would say at 1.

I do not have to prove to you that I have the right to work. This is a matter between myself and the relevant Government authorities. The mere fact that I have been mandated onto the Work Programme would seem to indicate that I have the right to work! In spite of this I showed you my signing on card, referral letter and even gave you sight of my bank details by showing you my bankcard. This is way above and beyond what is required to prove my identity. At the time this was accepted by you as proof of my identity and of my right to work and I wasn't asked or mandated to provide any further proof..

I would say in 2.

"As per my legal rights and the DWP guidelines to Providers I do not need to explain my declining to waive my rights under the Data Protection Act.. The fact that you ask the question in the first place is grounds enough for a complaint to the ICO and/or the DWP "

at 3 I would add after "I have a CV"

,which I have done.

let us know what happens.

[omskus]

Amazingly its the JCP who are asking for answer to those questions - its sad their staff aren't told clients rights.

[Bakatcha]

Message for flumps 1976

This may interest you from the Indus site:

Submitted by Jamie Grayson on Wed, 25/04/2012 - 10:57am.

It would be particularly useful to speak to any Jobcentre Plus employees, past or present. If there are any Indus Deltaers that fit this bill, i'd be very grateful if you made contact. All off the record initially. Many thanks.

 

contact details:

[email protected] and my number is 020 7428 5010.

[Bakatcha]

@omskus

Yes that's amazing! Still I hope you can adapt and use some of my input.

[osdset]

I cannot for the life of me see why anyone has to prove the right to work when they have been referred to the pimps by JCP who have already established this, likewise with ID in general, unless things have changed JCP check a claimants bank account, identity, NI number etc before a claim is processed.

[omskus]

Yip - thats what I'm going to do. I'll put my responses up later when I've finalised them. Only problem I have is with the end you provided to question 1 " At the time this was accepted by you as proof of my identity and of my right to work and I wasn't asked or mandated to provide any further proof..".

 

They obviously did try to press for further ID (I even met the manager/enforcer of the place) but eventually started keying my details in the computer which I would take as them accepting my ID.

 

Any ideas how I can change that?

[Nystagmite]

Can I be forced to work certain days? I've been told by my adviser that I must work weekends. I simply can't do weekends - ignoring the fact that I need a life, the buses are much worse at the weekend. I have been told to walk into work. I am disabled. I am not risking my safety.

[flumps1976]

It won't be the JCP themselves requesting the info omskus it will be the DMA section after receiving an entitlement doubt from the Work program providers.

 

Nystagmite depending on the type of work you are looking for and if you have caring responsibilies or as in your case a lack of public transport you are required to be available to take employment of 40 hours per week (or less if again responsibilities agree a reduced number of hours) so yes they can insist you look for work including weekends unless you can show them the lack of public transport prevents it.

[Nystagmite]

Thank you Flumps.