DCA demand old debt without notice from creditor

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

I know this company. A few people on here have had problems with them flouting debt collection guidance before.

Don't under any circumstances talk to them on the phone again.

Send them the amended harrassment letter and add:

This account is in genuine dispute with the school, and I am dealing with them direct to resolve and awaiting their response them to a SAR.

I am well aware of currect OFT debt collection guidelines and that if you persist in pusueing this debt while it is in genuine dispute I will have no hesitation in reporting you to the OFT and Trading Standards without further notice.

Furthermore, as only the owner of a debt can take legal action, your statement on the telephone that you will take me to court is clearly misleading and an attempt to intimidate and coerce me into making a payment, in direct contravention of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which can result in criminal proceedings being brought against you.

I also intend to make formal complaint to the school regarding your methods, and to my MP and West Yorkshire Constabulary if this harrassment continues.

 

Head it Formal Complaint and send it by recorded delivery Lou. I would definitely add a strong complaint about them to the school and follow through with the complaint to the OFT as they have upset a lot of people by their methods and need bringing to account.

 

Elsa x

[teaboy2]

I agree with Elsa additional points, they should be added to the letter to the DCA and in a complaint letter to the school. And as Elsa suggested send reports to the OFT your local MP and if they continue with such threats by phone or writing then report it to the police too.

[Undercover-Elsa]

The reason I mention West Yorkshire Constabulary, btw, is because the MD was a Police Officer there.

[teaboy2]

Lol ohh was he now, well we can have some fun knowing that then can't we hehehehehe

[louloujs]

Undercover-Elsa - Thank you for your wise words. I noted from the website that the MD was formerly a PO with WY Police, seems it's common practice for ex-POs to go into this sort of business.

 

"Considering his previous success rate in locating absconded criminals Chris chose to branch out into the field of Debt Recovery and formed First Debt Recovery Ltd with a vision of helping clients to recover unpaid debts that are owed to them." Bless.

 

I have sent the harassment letter already, but will send the DCA a further formal complaint letter outlining the points you've described and I'll attach it to a copy of the harassment letter and send it Recorded Delivery so I know they have everything together. I'll write a letter of complaint to the school as well to cover all bases.

 

The thought of this very disorganised, but strict catholic school employing the services of Chris and his merry men beggars belief. I'm sure Chris is doing a good job of reassuring them he'll collect no matter what...

 

Thank you all so much.

[Bazooka Boo]

I'm sure Chris is doing a good job of reassuring them he'll collect no matter what...

 

Ha ha, yes, except on this occasion he won't be getting a single penny!

[louloujs]

By way of a record, I've sent a Formal Complaint form of the harassment letter as outlined by Undercover-Elsa above Recorded Delivery to DCA together and sent a copy of the complaint with a covering letter to the school, Recorded Delivery, reiterating that I am keen to resolve the issue directly with the school but remain appalled at their treatment of my son.

 

Will update when I hear something.

 

Thank you

[louloujs]

I've today received Court Summon from the school (not the DCA who had obviously not bought the debt). The papers were sent to my old address (I've been writing to them with my new address clearly shown), it's been redirected. The papers for my husband, from whom I'm now separated, have also been sent to our old address, but been redirected to me. I told them we were no longer living at the same address.

 

There are several flaws in the PoC, I'll list below.

 

First, here are the PoC details:

 

1. The Claimant is an independent private day school.

2. From 06 to 09 the D's son was a pupil at X school. Throughout that period fees were charged for the schooling and invoices were sent for payment. The D's only made sporadic part payments which resulted in a balance due of £X when the D's son left the school. Despite numerous letters and telephone calls requesting the payment the outstanding amount remains unpaid.

3. The C also claims costs and interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum in the sum of £X (31st Aug 09 to 5 May 2011 612 days) and also at the date of judgement or earlier payment.

 

My flaws that I see are:

 

1. They haven't mentioned my two daughters for whom 65% of the outstanding balance refers.

2. My son did not leave the school, he was ejected from it, totally humiliated and still emotionally damaged because of it.

3. We have never had a call requesting payment. The only letters we've had were for my daughters prior to 2009 and the one letter for my son that came out after he'd been ejected from the school (the admin cock up). They've made it sound as if we've been chased for payment with calls and letters. We haven't heard a thing from this school since September 2009 when we made countless calls, sent letters and emails to resolve it to but these were only answered with a cursory email. Our calls and a visit to the school were rejected.

4. Interest has also been applied to son's fees from 2008, not just 2009.

5. 8% seems harsh to say the least...

 

I'm so angry now that although I wanted to pay what I thought was fair, their terrible approach to this and the effect of their actions on my son makes me want to countersue for damages and be see them take responsibility for the whole debacle. In truth, I'd happily offer them £5k (25%) to go away, but know that the DCA involved will do everything to scupper that. Why is a catholic school taking advice from such a bunch of morons?

 

However, I'd very much appreciate your advice on my next step. Breathing out now...

 

Thanks LL

[teaboy2]

Hi Lou Lou

 

Have you received the SAR back from the school yet?

 

You will need to let the courts know that you intend to defend against the claim. Others with experience in defending court claims will be along shortly and will no doubt talk you through it all.

[louloujs]

Hi teaboy, thanks for the reply. No, I meant to add, the school has not responded to my SAR and my cheque has not yet been cashed... They still have some time until the 40 days is up.

[unclebulgaria67]

See a solicitor about the way you should proceed on this. They will explain what you can do to dispute the claim on the basis of inaccurate information in their POC and how to come to an amicable resolution with the school. I thought that independent schools had some form of independent arbitration process to mediate over fees disputes. Your position cannot be unique to the school, so they must have a process that they follow.

[Bazooka Boo]

Have a read through this... http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/factsheet.php?page=20_replying_to_a_county_court_claim_form

[Undercover-Elsa]

You might find this useful to check for any transgressions (The Independant School Standards Regukations)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1910/contents/made

 

Good thread on what to do if you're being sued:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241827-Legal-Action-how-to-start-off.-IMPORTANT-IF-YOURE-BEING-SUED

 

Apart from acknowledging the claim, you need to send them a CPR 31.14 request for all docs mentioned in the POC. If there's anything you need that they haven't mentioned, you can get round this by sending a section 18 request asking for info. (Only when they've mentioned a doc can you request it.)

 

The CPR request (adapt further if needed)

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your claim.

 

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The contract (including tems and conditions).

You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written contract, a copy of the contract, or documents constituting the agreement , should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached. This should include a schedule of fees for the duration of the relevant period.

 

2. A full and accurate statement of account clearly showing how the sum claimed has been calculated.

 

3. A copy of all original invoices pertaining to the amount claimed

 

4. A record of all telephone calls, dates, times and recordings or transcripts

 

5. A copy of all correspondence sent in respect of this dispute, with proof of posting.

 

 

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

 

 

 

(Above adapted from letter courtesy SurfaceagentX20 )

 

Bearing in mind you can only request what's in the POC, is there anything else you need which is vital to your case which could be queried in a section 18 request for info?

 

Elsa x

Edited May 17, 2011 by Undercover-Elsa

[louloujs]

Hi, an update

 

I have spoken to a solicitor who has given me advice and has raised a number of points. Wary of highlighting these here, however, she has said that the CPR request should be under section 31.16 rather than 14. I need to do that very quickly. However, in trying to find an appropriate template, it seems that 31.16 is for use before proceedings have commenced. Forgive ignorance, but does a claim being issued constitute proceedings have started?

 

If anyone could help on this point, I'd be very careful and a pointer to the appropriate template would be much appreciated, I've looked for hours and can only find reference to .14 requests.

 

Thank you in advance ;-)

 

LL

[count orlok]

http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/procedure-rules/civil/contents/parts/part31.htm#IDAGETIC

[louloujs]

Thank you - 31.16 appears to be correct. I need to know whether a 31.16 request letter template exists or if I can adapt the 31.14 posted earlier by Undercover Elsa. Any guidance?

[louloujs]

Hi, I need to send this letter off tomorrow. Could anyone confirm if I can use the CPR 31.14 request above and amend it to say 31.16 or is there another template I can use to ask for documents mentioned in the PoC? I've been looking for hours.

 

Thanks LL

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Loulou,

How odd. I don't know why the solicitor has said that. From what I can gather CPR 31.16 is normally for "advance disclosure" before proceedings have commenced, the purpose being to establish whether a claim has merit before undertaking to start legal action:

 

Application under CPR 31.16:

Advanced disclosure is only available before proceedings or prior to the normal time of disclosure and discovery in order to:

1. fairly dispose of the anticipated proceedings
   
2. to assist in the dispute being resolved without proceedings
   
3. to save costs.
   

(Full text:

http://www.dllegal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=155 )

The "normal time for disclosure" is after proceedings have started. Prior to this you cannot use 31.14, but as a claim has now been issued, you can.

Just my view. You might want to get another sols opinion on that, or ring her back and ask her to clarify in the light of the claim being in progress.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

[Undercover-Elsa]

Furthermore, from what I've read, a 31.16 request requires that you give evidence as to why you feel the request is valid...ie the reason you believe that court action will ensue or be necessary in order for the court to decide whether to enforce the request.

The only time I've seen it used on here is (in the oden days!) when people used it to try and force the banks to produce Consumer Credit Agreement BEFORE a claim was issued, in order to take action against the bank for a declaration of unenforceability, if they didn't produce it. This is rarely if ever done now.

The only reason I can think of for her suggesting 31.16 is that it could be used for docs not mentioned in the POC, as required by 31.14, but these POCs are pretty long and detailed so should cover all we've asked for? We can also request info (as opposed to documents) under part 18, then further request any docs they mention in their reply, if needed.

 

 

I'll try and get someone else to look in, but my own view is go with 31.14 in view of the fact that the summons has already been issued. Your decision though..the sol might know something about the case that we don't.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Undercover-Elsa

[citizenB]

responding to S.O.S sent out by UC.. give me a few minutes to read through the thread

[citizenB]

NONONONO... your request needs to be made under CPR31.14 for physical information that is menitoned on the Particular of Claims. If you are wanting other information then it needs to be made under a Part 18 request.

 

So on the CPR31.14 you can request copies of the invoices showing how the amount requested on the claim is made up.

 

I imagine you can also request copies of terms and conditions that allows them to add any interest anddivulge your information to a thrid party.

 

I see you have already sent off a Subject Access Request, how long have you got before they are due to provide that.. ?

 

In fact anything that is mentioned in the Particulars of claim can be requested via the CPR31.14. I see they say they sent you letters, you deffo need copies of them as it will almost certainly prove they have been deliberately writing to an incorrect address after you have given them your current whereabouts.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Thanks Cb..

 

I thought I wasn't going completely mad. Don't know what the sol was thinking..but my own experience with them when dealing with a problem with my mum's estate a few yrs ago made me realise how obtuse they can be...they rarely seem to look into things in any great depth.

[louloujs]

Thank you both so much for coming to the rescue. Haven't been able to get in touch with solicitor, still waiting to hear.

 

By way of an update, solicitor suggested I make a F&F because the likelihood of the costs outweighing a personal injury claim are high, there are simply too many unknowns to risk it. So, I have made an offer of what I think is fair given their action. I have titled this, as advices, WITHOUT PREJUDICE SAVE AS TO COSTS. Following another call to MCOL, they are not changing my date of service (it took several days longer to reach me because they had sent it to the wrong address, 'deliberately' wouldn't surprise me). So, the 28 days is up on Thursday, despite their earlier advice that they had noted my actual date of service.

 

I will go ahead and send the CPR31.14 by SD tomorrow to both school and DCA (headed Without Prejudice save as to costs) unless the solicitor comes up promptly with a valid reason why I should use 31.16. I've read up so much and can't see how the .16 applies here. I've missed the Special Delivery today anyway. The solicitor has asked me request, in that letter, a 28 day extension to prepare a defence following the date I receive the disclosed documents. (The SAR was dated 3rd May, with a couple of days' service, 40 days is up next Wednesday).

 

My worry is that the DCA will apply for CCJ on Thursday, given his attitude. Can he do this having received a CPR 31.16? Apparently I can apply for an N244 Order to request an extension to file a defence and I have one printed off ready to fax tomorrow. (If this is the recommended option to cover myself, I need to know 'what level of Judge does your hearing need' and 'who should be served with this application?' I imagine both Claimant and his representative. Clearly, I cannot produce a coherent defence without having sight of the documents. If an N244 has been applied for, does this mean a CCJ cannot be entered?

 

This is my reason for the order:

 

"We are asking the Court for an extension of 28 days from the date of disclosure of documents to file a defence.

 

1. The Claimant or Claimant's representative sent Claim Forms to the wrong address, despite our notification in writing that we had moved house and informing the Claimant of our new address.

 

2. Requests under both Subject Access Request and Civil Procedure Rules for disclosure of documents and a further 28 days to produce a defence following the receipt of such documents has been sent to the Claimant and the Claimant's representative. We are unable to enter a defence until these documents have been received. "

 

 

So, that is where we are for now. I have been told a DJ will not be happy about the service on the wrong address and the lack of response to the letters that contain a request to mediate an offer. What I have offered may well be what a DJ would award, but a CCJ would have serious implications on OH's ability to earn and settle it in any event. My offer is conditional on their discontinuing the action with the provision to reinstate if my payments are received as promised.

 

If you have any advice re the N244 above, I'd be very grateful.

 

Sincerely, LL

[citizenB]

You shouldnt be heading up your CPR31.14 request ..** Without Prejudice** as you want to be able to refer to it in court.

 

You can head up your F&F letter if you wish.

 

Yes, definitely mention in any defence that, despite having been advised of your new address, the claimant has issued proceedings at an address they know you no longer live at.

 

If you are submitting a minimal/holding defence, then the Claimant cannot apply for a default judgment.

 

You request extra time under CPR15.5. If the School is the claimant, then the DCA cant apply for ANYTHING as they do not own the debt. If you feel brave enough, you could telephone the solicitor and ask if they will agree to extra time under CPR15.5. However, they will need to provide you with a letter/email/fax saying they ARE agreeing to this in order for you to get it to the court on time, as it is your responsibility to advise the court.

 

“Agreement extending the period for filing a defence

15.5

http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part15.htm#IDAUXNTB

(1) The defendant and the claimant may agree that the period for filing a defence specified in rule 15.4 shall be extended by up to 28 days.

(2) Where the defendant and the claimant agree to extend the period for filing a defence, the defendant must notify the court in writing.”

[citizenB]

I will try and find some more help for you...