DCA demand old debt without notice from creditor

[louloujs]

Hi, it's been a while since I posted but hope you can help with some good advice again.

 

I've received a Final Demand from a DCA pursuing a debt for fees on an account (school fees) which has come out of the blue. I haven't heard anything from the creditor for 18 months since a dispute arose and the creditor refused to correspond with me. The figures look very inaccurate and I rang (usual aggressive response) to request a breakdown.

 

I've been told the account has been sold to the DCA. The DCA is writing to me at an old address and I haven't received the other letter prior to this Final Demand. The DCA has said I will be emailed a breakdown and a letter of assignment but this has yet to be received.

 

If the figures are invalid, isn't the notice invalid? Either way, there is a debt and I am willing to pay in instalments but only what I owe. I would have happily dealt with the creditor and will respond directly once/if the breakdown appears.

 

By way of procedure, shouldn't I have received something, i.e. a closing statement from the creditor before this action was taken? The DCA is, as expected, an animal.

 

Thanks LL

[dx100uk]

stop using the phone to talk to dca's!!

 

they will lie......

 

did you sign an agreement or are you late paying

or you child only atetndedf or a set time

 

what i s the history please

 

dx

[louloujs]

Hi, wouldn't ordinarily talk on the phone to DCA, but I wanted to know who the creditor was... Won't be talking again.

 

For background, I struggled with fees for 3 children, two left prior to the problem, one was still at the school. In July 09 chool sec forgot to send letter to say if it wasn't paid, remaining child wouldn't be allowed back. Nightmare on first day back because I hadn't responded to the letter that was never sent (sec sent it a week after the complaint). Child was told to leave, caused extreme stress and despite, numerous attempts to resolve the issue, school wouldn't respond at all. Son was without schooling for a month, caused big problems, because I did PR for the school (!), I believed the school was too embarrassed to pursue the debt.

 

The letter today was the first in the matter since September 2009. I've now received statement: interest has been added (about £2k) and fees for the term that child couldn't attend are included. I am disgusted they should charge fees because their admin failed and I could have made alternative arrangements, i.e. I was not given notice, surely I shouldn't have to pay a term's notice.

 

So, I want to dispute the amount claimed. I have been emailed a copy of the original 7 day letter from DCA that I hadn't received. No letter of assignment as requested was emailed.

 

I'd really like to go back to the school and make an offer to pay what I feel is fair in instalments. Don't want to deal with DCA. I didn't sign a financial agreement at any point; I'm sure I would have agreed to the schools T&Cs, but various arrangements were made, some successful, some not.

 

I could give the school some very bad PR, but that's just today's upset boiling over.

 

Thanks for your help

 

LL

 

Thanks

[Bazooka Boo]

Your right NOT to deal with the DCA, this is clearly the fault of the School and they need to take responsibility for their poor admin.

 

Is the school corresponding with you at all?

If they won't respond to your letters and take responsibility for their actions then maybe a bit of bad publicity will give them the kick they need! Your local MP and local authority should be able to help on this also, it might be worth giving them a nudge to see if they can help.

 

IMO I would start by writing a letter to whoever is in charge of the school or department you are in dispute with, and stress that you WILL NOT entertain their chosen third party DCA you will ONLY deal with them direct, and that they MUST take responsibility for this disputed account.

 

If they fail to respond within say 14 days, then issue them with a letter before action, outlining your previous letter, and the result of their continued ignorance will result in further action.

 

Again if they fail to respond to that, then do your worst, a DCA CANNOT take ANY legal action against you, ALL they can do is to advise the school of what they should do, it will then be up to the school to decide if they wish to pursue this via the courts, and if you have all of your paperwork in order, they will find it extremely difficult to convince the Judge that you are liable for this amount. As you say, you ARE willing to pay what you realistically owe, and that is fair, what the school is attempting to do is certainly unfair!

[louloujs]

Thanks Bazooka Boo for your comments.

 

The debt claimed includes some minor charges that I hadn't agreed to (insurance costs), but what I object to is being charged £2000 for a term that we didn't benefit from because child was told to leave because of late payments. The fact that I didn't receive their letter stating this is definitely their fault and crediting that term's fees should be the least they can do. I didn't even receive a bill for that term's fees. Incredible that I've heard nothing for almost two years and then this.

 

It occurred to me that their T&Cs (I can't recall seeing any but am sure they exist) should preclude them from taking the action they did. It was a horrendous experience being told to collect my child on his first day back at school and told not to come back. He'd been there for years and the way he was treated was appalling.

 

I note your comment about sending a letter before action, but what further action can I take against them? I want them to revise the amount claimed so I can start paying by instalments. They'll be reluctant to accept this because I had problems before, although those are now resolved and, in any event, I'm sure a court would allow me to make monthly payments.

 

I am minded to point out that their dreadful actions on child's last day were distressing and caused considerable inconvenience, missed schooling and insecurities that continue in school life now. How do they compensate for that?

 

Thanks again for your invaluable advice. I won't be dealing with the DCA, who have said they'll be taking me to court tomorrow. I must keep reminding myself of the DCA numpty process.

 

LL

Edited April 20, 2011 by louloujs

[Bazooka Boo]

Any court action that they foolishly bring (the school) would be defended and counter sued for distress.

 

Who is the DCA? Do you have it in writing that they will be taking you to court tomorrow? How sad sorry and deluded are they! As they are acting on behalf of the school, this is MORE ammo to your defences, as their actions are the responsibility of the school, again more ammo for a serious complaint to the school, and if they do not wish to take responsibility for this problem they have caused, then they will have to pay the consequences.

 

I note your comment about sending a letter before action, but what further action can I take against them?

 

Involving the regulatory body the school is a member of, the local authority, your local MP, and the media!

[louloujs]

Thank you for this advice. I have several letters that I wrote to the school at the time concerning distress caused, none of which were addressed at all; I just received one reply with a cursory one line demand for payment, then nothing further.

 

The DCA suggested court action would follow on Thursday. He has said the debt has been assigned to him - "me" in fact, totally unprofessional as per usual. They're writing to me at my old address too. I won't be responding to DCA, I'll draft a letter up to the school today and send. I'll make reference to the regulatory body too. The school is also a registered charity and a christian school - as such, their behaviour is seriously unbecoming!

 

I can't tell you how much happier I feel following your replies, heartfelt thanks.

 

LL

[Bazooka Boo]

Make an example of them, this has clearly been dragging on for too long, and their constant ignorance will only go in your favour not theirs! you are the one who is in a strong position, they really are not in any position to be throwing tame threats of court action, not only will this cost them to do so, but a counter claim for damages would be much more that the poxy disputed amount they are demanding.

[louloujs]

Thanks again for your reassurance. I've drafted a letter and wonder if, when you have time, you could comment on this? It's quite long, but I wanted to set out all the background appropriately. Here goes:

 

 

Dear

 

I have today received a Final Demand from DCA demanding the sum of £X (Note that no previous letters have been received from DCA.) Since there was no reference to the creditor, I contacted the company only to be verbally abused and told SCHOOL was the creditor and that they now owned this debt.

 

I have since received a poor emailed copy of an outstanding balance, but no copy of assignment of debt as requested. The statement includes incorrect entries and, since the amount claimed by DCA is in dispute, the Final Demand is invalid and it must be assumed that no assignment of the debt has taken place.

 

I will not communicate with your chosen third party debt collection agency and will only deal directly with the school with regard to this matter.

 

On 9th September 2009, on the first day of the autumn term, XX was removed from the school without notice and in the most traumatic way. After four years at the school, he had no opportunity to say goodbye to his friends and teachers and was treated in the school, after hours in a classroom, with three teachers, without the dignity or respect he deserved. My daughter, a former pupil, who came to collect him that day was also left shaken by your actions and attitude that afternoon.

 

XX was left without schooling for a month and has not adjusted since he left SCHOOL. He is a lovely, but insecure child who struggles to settle into school life and make friends and is more concerned with school procedures than he should be. All this because a letter you apparently wrote in the school holidays was not posted. The single line letter you wrote demanding £X by the first day of term was eventually posted on 9th September and received by me on the 10th, clearly in response to the events preceding that date. I offered to send you the postmarked envelope. The letter was dated 4th September. X was removed from the school without any notice whatsoever. This is not school procedure.

 

The circumstances surrounding X’s departure, as I wrote to you, were disturbing and should not have been subjected to any child. If your letter had been posted in the summer break, I would have made every effort to clear the debt before the new term; I certainly wouldn’t have sent X to school.

 

On the day and in the days after this event, I repeatedly tried to contact you by phone, email and by X’s father visiting the school; we were told you were unavailable. Your single reply to my communication was cursory, did not accept the responsibility of your actions that day and suggested that our financial problems preceded the credit crunch, which was inaccurate.

 

I assumed that your lack of subsequent correspondence was perhaps due to embarrassment over the way X’s departure was handled. To receive a Final Demand from a disreputable debt collection agency some nineteen months later that includes a fallacious interest charge, without prior communication from the school is disconcerting in the least. I must wonder if current parents of the school are aware such action is now school procedure.

 

I am also particularly concerned that a number of current parents are aware of personal information held by the school relating to me, which has been divulged by staff. This is entirely unacceptable.

 

I would like to come to an arrangement to settle this account; please note that I am now X’s sole provider, but my means, although limited, can be supported by a relative to assure you of my commitment. I will not be willing to pay insurance fees shown on the statement emailed to me, nor will I be willing to pay for a term’s fees, when X was ejected from the school without notice. I did not receive an invoice for his final term’s fees from the school.

 

If you decide to pursue this action through the court, I will defend the action and counter-sue for damages in respect of distress caused and inform the appropriate regulatory bodies and local authority. Despite my best intentions to keep making payments to the school, which proved increasingly difficult, the school should have taken responsibility for its actions a long time ago.

 

I hope that you will now contact me so we can resolve this matter as soon as possible. I will not be responding to abusive and threatening correspondence from a disreputable debt collection agency, whose relationship with SCHOOL could seriously damage the school’s reputation.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

So grateful, LL

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

I would also send a Subject Access Request to the school for ALL the data they hold on you.

This should produce all copies of correspondence, bills, statements, payments..everything they hold.

There is a link to a standard SAR in my blog linked below. Amend it to suit, including all data you specifically need.

They have 40 days from receipt to comply, otherwise you can make a complaint to the Information Commissioner.

There is usually a fee, for banks it's a maximum of £10, but may be different for a school..you'd need to put something on the lines of "if a fee is required please advise me of the amount by return".

Send it recorded.

 

Hope this helps,

Elsa x

[Bazooka Boo]

That is a very well versed letter, keep a copy of what you send, and should they continue to act in the same immature manner then it can be shown to the relevant authorities. Regarding the information that you say is now common knowledge by some parents as divulged by staff, this would merit an investigation by the ICO, so you might like to mention the ICO in your letter?

[louloujs]

Bazooka Boo and Undercover-Elsa,

 

Thank you both for your comments; I'll certainly add a comment about ICO and data privacy. I wasn't aware I could SAR the school, I think I should as I inadvertently disposed of my copy fee invoices when I moved house recently. I wonder if they'll include a copy of the letter that made a reference to the size of my [old] house and husband's car, words along the lines of 'if you can afford a big house and flash car, you should pay your fees'. The more I write, the more I realise how unprofessional the Head is.

 

I know the responsibility to pay fees is mine and I kept in regular contact with the previous head about my financial difficulties, but the school's admin was very poor; allowing me to run up such a huge overdue amount was a consequence of this too.

 

Thanks again, letter going off today. Should I cc the DCA? Really don't want to acknowledge these idiots at all.

 

LL

[louloujs]

'I am also particularly concerned that a number of current parents are aware of personal information held by the school relating to me, which has been divulged by staff. This is entirely unacceptable and I must make reference to the Information Commissioner’s Office, which is tasked with upholding the privacy of data on individuals. I have a right for information you hold on me to be kept private; I am aware that member(s) of staff have discussed my personal and financial affairs, which is disturbing. Despite the appalling way X was treated by the school, I kept the matter private. If the school continues with the aggressive line adopted by DCA, I may take the matter up with my MP, the school’s governors and the local authority.'

[count orlok]

I would also be inclined to contact your local newspaper.

[Bazooka Boo]

You can ignore the DCA, this is the sole responsibility of the school, not some deluded tin pot DCA, shame you haven't got that letter, that would look great in the papers! If you do SAR, then specifically ask for that document to be included also, I doubt it was hand written, so they should have a copy of it on file or hard drive.

 

IMO this should be taken out of the schools hands and forwarded to the local authority plus the OfSted. It is clear that how you have been treated so far falls way short of anything remotely acceptable, they have made it blatantly obvious, that they are not equipped to deal with such matters.

[louloujs]

Update: just had a call on my mobile from DCA rude person who said 'we've got a copy of your letter, we're taking you to court'. Nice intro. I asked who he was and where he was calling from and I asked him to write to me instead of calling. Put the phone down as he was reiterating his court message.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

I have no evidence that the debt has been 'sold' to the DCA. Can they take court action, rather than the school?

I feel I should follow up my original letter to the school with a 'disappointed' letter saying that I'm now writing to LEA and OfSted, but will wait a couple of days for school to respond (which I doubt will happen). Is a second letter, shorter and firmer, a good idea? I can ill afford the stress and costs associated with the court process, which, according to DCA is to follow next.

I think an SAR to the school is now a necessity.

Do I need to talk to a solicitor about a potential damages claim? What I really wanted was to offer a full and final settlement direct to the school, but would have done this if and when the school responded to my original letter.

 

Nice start to the week.

 

Sorry if this is a little jumbled, mind working overtime now. Thank you for your help.

 

LL

[teaboy2]

Ignore the DCA they just loud mouth you on the phone after forgetting to clean their mouths with mouth wash.

 

Send the DCA this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?493-Harassment-by-telephone-response-letter. And add to it that you will be corresponding with the School only, and that the dca was not a NAMED 3rd party to the contract. As such they have no legal right to take the contractual dispute to court regardless of their abusive threats and promises to do so on the phone to you.

 

Who is the DCA by the way, that the debt was sold too?

[louloujs]

Thanks teaboy2, that's the eassurance I needed. I'll get that letter off now.

 

The DCA is First Debt Recovery http://www.firstdebtrecovery.com/terms-conditions.php Award-winning idiots.

 

LL x

[teaboy2]

Lol First Debt Recovery. Yeah you can safely ignore any Muppet that refers to themselves as the First Debt Recovery company in name as they certainly were not the first.

 

As i said they can not take you to court unless they were an named 3rd party to the original contract. Therefore as you and the school are the only likely named original parties, then only the school can take you to court for an alleged breach of contract, and even then they would only be able to recover the financial loss, equal to the outstanding amount, plus costs. But the would have to prove their was a breach committed by you. Also does it say anywhere in the contract with the school in the terms and conditions that they have the right to sell any debt to a 3rd party, i think not.

[teaboy2]

Is it just me or is that bloody womans voice on their website, describing what they do, flaming annoying?

[louloujs]

The woman's voice is interminable - and a bit of a contrast with the thick brute that rang me earlier. Suspect they're working in a portacabin at the back of a used car sales site.

 

I did breach by failing to keep up payments and would like to settle, but there is a side issue relating to the way child was removed school with no notice (terrible admin) and Bazooka Boo (above) has suggested I countersue for damages if a court case follows. If the school don't reply to my letter, I'll be really surprised, or perhaps not. I don't think they have a clue, they've obviously just sent the letter straight to DCA. (Probably being threatened themselves by these idiots).

 

I do not recall seeing any terms and conditions at any point. An SAR will solve that one.

[teaboy2]

No terms and conditions, that you can recall. Well then lets see what the SAR to the school turns up, if there is no terms and conditions then i can not see what grounds they have for demanding any payments of you for any tuition/school fees. though their probably was some terms and conditions. So eitherway will be very interesting to see what turns up.

 

And yes i suspect a judge would not be happy at all at the way your son was treated, by the way you may have a claim for damages as their actions have severely effect your sons mental state (Hint), way he was treated by staff when removed and loss of education that he has a right too. Play the sympathy card in court if the school goes that route, which i doubt they will since they sold the debt.

 

By the way all schools should have a complaints policy, have you asked them for a copy of theirs?

[bubbsie1]

Hi Louloujs

 

since you heard nothing for nineteen months from the school they are likely to have gone back through their old accounts and contacted the DCA in an effort to bring in some form of revenue from you and others who have had difficulty paying the fees (possibly in financial difficulties themselves) whichever way you view it it's an inexcusable way to treat a child, particularly in front of his peers and the rest of his schoolmates .

 

I am just wondering if the school board of govenors were involved in this course of action, have they instigated it, would they be in favour of this course of action, or appalled by it; worth considering an approach to them in addition to the other measures above.

 

I am relatively new to this forum but I understood when debts were sold a notice of assigment was a necessity or have I got this wrong?

 

Good luck

 

 

.

[louloujs]

Update: have sent SAR to the school and harassment letter to DCA confirming I will only deal with the school and pointing out they have no right to take me to court. We shall see which terms and conditions are sent.

 

Bubbsie1: Thank you for commenting. Agree, they have a right to demand of me, I have never refused to pay, but despite many requests in September 09 to resolve the matter, they declined - we assumed in shame at the way they treated my son. It's a very difficult situation and I will take any steps against the school reluctantly, my aim is to come to a financial settlement, but I will not tolerate their appalling approach. It's a catholic school that has completely contradicted its philosophy to support, nurture, care etc.

 

We'll see what comes from the SAR.

 

Thanks everyone. LL

[bubbsie1]

Hi LLJS

 

I am completely on your side but it occured to me that nothing from the school for nineteen months then DCA action, indicates financial difficulties for the establishment; however, not the way to recoup costs/fees I always believe nothing is acheived by heavy handed tactics; they could have negoiated when you first offered.

 

I am appalled at how insensitive they were with your son and would be concerned they may have done/do this to others thats why I suggested the govenors may not approve this kind of behaviour if brought to their attention.

 

I went to catholic school and one of their fundemental beliefs was in the innocence of the child whatever their parent/guardian may or may not have done (not suggesting you have done anything wrong at all) so to dismiss your son because of a financial misunderstanding in that way is extremely callous.

 

Once you have completed the SARs request and have resolved the financial dispute nothing to stop you ringing it to the attention of the governing board and others that have an influence with the school.

 

Never wise to do before you have a resolution in case it proves to be provocative.

 

Good luck