Benefit Sanctions?

[Elliebes]

thanks for this link to the article. I read it and looking back I was one of the ones tricked into receiving a sanction it all becomes clear now being passed around from PA to PA because they dont want to face me.

 

I received an acknowledgment letter the other day about my recent appeals and if I dont win them well then fine I will go to Tribunal. I want to tell them that the PA who sanctioned me laughed in my face when I mentioned the 4 sanctions a week they have to do and he said even if I do feel victimized by them at the end of the month HE still gets his salary haw haw!

 

for some reason I cant get onto the unlawfulsanction websites.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Elliebes

[maroondevo52]

 

for some reason I cant get onto the unlawfulsanction websites.

 

Me neither ?

[Guest jsa12]

all this shows the complete sham this is,job seekers charters,customer service and staff acting and talking like complete clowns'.imagine having to work in that environment. the only talk you here is i referred this and that for sanction.when the heat builds it results in denials and a blame someone else.

 

yet they claim that standards to the public will fall when their conditions are under the spotlight with statements such as:

 

''We are being prevented from providing a good quality service to the public because of unnecessary and unrealistic call centre targets"

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8437041/Jobcentre-staff-to-strike-over-target-driven-culture.html

 

it has to be said what standards.

[45002]

Working Now

 

http://unlawfulsanctions.org.uk/

[Elliebes]

Benefit Sanction Appeal update: Ive just received another letter asking me to send them what I did to look for work during the dates 15.10.10 - 28.10.10. Do I have to give them my actual job log so they can pick holes in it ? Also the letter informed me if I did not do this then my benefits would be stopped. The thing is I could construct anything and they have no way of proving anything either.

 

What makes me angry is the constant threat....always in their correspondence. Automatically a scrounger and like Im not going to comply. I also got sent a copy of my job seekers agreement just for good measure. More work.....more stress....prove this prove that.......

[Guest jsa12]

the point you have raised.

 

"The thing is I could construct anything and they have no way of proving anything either"

 

is a very good one.this proves the whole flawed system that they have invented,proof appears to be lacking in many of their attempted sanctions.what i have seen normally happen people are given a form to complete and their benefit goes on hold if apparently they decide that not enough actively seeking was done,its not uncommon to sign now and the jobseekers agreement is there and picked over looking for any missed actions that weren't recorded on the log.its very important that all of this is put down prior to signing to avoid the above hence where many disable people have fallen foul of the "nagging" of those in the job centre is clearly audible to hear and appears to be the most prominent group affected,this looks to be along the lines of the whistleblowers statement and looks to have been widespread.

 

it doesn't matter that someone may have worked or not the attitude to those claiming benefits is universally applied,this has resulted in many breeches of rights both legal and human by the dwp and their comments/treatment to "customers".

[Elliebes]

The whole point of my appeal was to prove just cause for forgetting my job log and their whole point is to prove whether I was looking for work or not whilst living in a hostel....I just dont understand it? I think I should get some help with this as they clearly cant read letters or understand the points you're trying to make. I have one month to answer the letter from the date on it. Once again they are looking for a reason to not cough up this money.

 

As it happens I dont have the job log in question. I moved out of the hostel and didnt expect to be re-appealing this sanction so threw papers out which my job log was obviously among them so what do you suggest? Make one up? Or just be honest and tell them and quote some clause to say the whole point of my letter was to prove just cause and you have turned it around back on me to prove I was looking for work?

[Guest jsa12]

if you forgot the log you forgot it can happen to anyone,it just goes to show how unreasonably they are behaving normally they give you a form to fill in with the evidence and a decision is made,i wouldn't suggest make one up. they are being unreasonable it really depends on how long ago this was and have you provided the evidence to them in the past between these dates at some point,the only vacancies they chase up are the ones they submit someone for the only exception is programs like new deal where people are forced some might say under duress to sign away their rights in this case the providers can and do read all your input and contact all of the companies ie did someone turn up,why didn't they get the job all very underhanded.

 

you shouldn't be re appealing a sanction,has this gone to a tribunal yet or are they asking for this pre tribunal to stop the case going further?.

[Elliebes]

It was last October. There is no tribunal as yet. It was my new job centre that told me to re-appeal!

[Guest jsa12]

it might be worth involving the gp with a letter mentioning the anxiety for any appeal too ,it might also be best to be upfront tell them that you have moved and the documents got discarded after this time and that you couldn't not reproduce an accurate copy again after this time and that you will if necessary be proceeding to the tribunal to clear my name .what you do need for the appeal is any job search activity this proves that you are looking and actively seeking which you have been and take this along.

 

always keep the job log with the signing book and keep to the agreement,depending who you see signing some are only to willing to pick holes and if they cannot try and pick what they personally think audibly ,my doctors advice was to get in and get out as quickly as possible and try and take the stress out of my life its not easy in there with anxiety and those that suffer do need them to add to the burden, persevere to the appeal let the evidence of the stress do the talking, your efforts to resolve this amicably with what looks to be increasingly difficult with increasing obstacles to overcome . the tribunal is independent of the dwp.

Edited April 12, 2011 by jsa12

[Elliebes]

Further update on the sanction story. I was sent a form by the DWP with my appeal and they asked me once again to produce my job log from way back in October. I wrote to the DM that I no longer had this job log as I had moved out of the hostel I was occupying 3 weeks later and it was destroyed in the process and I think it unreasonable for them to expect me to have this log 5 months later as I did not know I was going to appeal this decision until the beginning of April.

 

I got the forms and the request on the 7th April giving me one month to reply. I sent a letter back with the forms dated 27th April stating I dont have this job log. Its now 3 weeks since they got the letter and the DM has still not made a decision on my appeal. Is there a time limit? I did say I was prepared to go to Tribunal on this issue in the letter as my new job centre told me they would not sanction someone on the basis of a forgotten job log and would have taken my circumstances into account on that day.

[Guest jsa12]

the time limit applies to getting the application for appeal in not how long a decision takes,its perfectly reasonable the reasons you give for not still having it in your possession and drop the appeal word in also was useful also as it states your intent in this matter this will encourage them to drop the matter in strong cases,usually its good to have a card up your sleeve to play at a later date too if you can.

[ErikaPNP]

I'm afraid that there is no time limit set in law for how long it takes to make a decision on an appeal.

[Elliebes]

Unfortunately but we get time limits imposed on us. Call me paranoid and ok Im not the only file in their desk but I wouldnt be surprised if they were hanging on to see the outcome of my habitual residency Tribunal...although unconnected. I believe Ive been treated badly over the months I was there because I dared to take them to Tribunal. This particular branch of job centre has just wasted the Tribunals time by not providing the correct documents for the HRT hearing on Friday. Theyve been told to go away and GET the correct documentation and the hearing has been adjourned. Ive been waiting over 8 months for this hearing and despite several requests they still turned up at the courts with the wrong documentation. The arrogance of these people never ceases to amaze me even in the face of authority.

[flumps1976]

Your appeal won't be linked with your Habitually Residency decision.

A reconsideration of a decision is usually made within 3 weeks of referral to the DMA team but an apeal can take months before it is decided.

[Elliebes]

I didnt mean literally linked to the HRT decision. I meant linked in as opposed to being vindictive. This JC has got to be the most vindictive in the country its well known in the area by many who have had dealings. I would not put anything past them regardless of the timescale.

[Guest jsa12]

i am afraid its always the same,the stupidity i have to sit there listening to when signing is unobservable,it does depend on an extent to who you see however this highlights how roughshod and cunning this department has become both in terms of its standards and culture.

 

the emphasis has shifted substantially from a job centre to a sanction centre,this is due to obvious economic facts and shows how what economic failure combined with an inability to govern has brought us.

[Elliebes]

Spot on there JSA12 the job centres have become sanction centres run by nasty bits of work afraid that one day if they dont sanction you or do the allotted 4 sanctions a week target they will find themselves sitting on the same side as you one day.

 

You have to ask yourself what kind of mentality would want to work in an ethos like that? Yes I would like a job but no way, I have too much of a conscience. Its a wonder they havent tried that one to sanction someone. Offered them a job in the job centre and then when they didnt apply for it they got sanctioned to catch someone out that they haven't yet caught....

 

Im doing a course for a well known advisory agency and will probably be volunteering there once the course is completed. They pointed out that we have to be prepared for very sad cases and develop a thick skin. So if in this line of work of advisory there will be people you cant help for one reason or another and it could be upsetting then those people in the job centres must have nose death or bullying traits in their personalities.

[Guest jsa12]

i was told its just a job to them.personally i wouldn't want to work under that type of culture some of the comments handed down have been totally undermining and atrocious.

problems start when vulnerable people are caught up in this and has lead to bad publicity as the treatment of the unemployed and sick/disabled,it cannot be simply passed off as a misunderstanding as in law ignorance is no defence.sadly its another case of direct.gov saying one thing as to the rights of the individual and the same source continues to seek to contravene and suppress its activities in breach off.

[flumps1976]

Not all people who work in JCP/DWP are bad apples and I enjoy working where I do, I enjoy the customer service element of my job role and I personally strive to give the best that I can including any help I can offer here.

Maybe I am one in a minority who can actually help and do so on a frequent basis, and sometime I do try and help out in this forum but am increasinlgly finding that I too am being labelled with the same brush as some of my colleagues who do take things too far or maybe they are pushed too hard in turn by their managers. If some people keep bashing the people who come on here to give any advice that could be at all useful then naybe they will tire of the abuse and leave.

Maybe some people have had bad experiences with DWP/JCP but isn't it the same with any organisation. I have been treated appalingly by some large retail companies but it doesn't mean that I label ever single memeber of their staff on the same manner.

[Elliebes]

I had no idea you actually worked for the job centre flumps76.

 

I have to say the people bashing Im doing are only the ones in this particularly bad job centre that I felt forced to leave and sign on somewhere else and I also have to say the the people in my new job centre are nice people and do genuinely try to help you and give you respect.

 

I did have one Advisor say to me on the quiet in the old job centre ''Im not like these other people'' but sorry I was suspicious of her. Smiling assassin. This particular job centre has got a terrible reputation in the area and there are so many complaints going around. Other job centres that people run to are busy trying to sort out the problems caused by this vicious place on their new clients. They pick on who they think are weak and vulnerable. They dont pick on the guys that say to them if you stop my benefits I will come in here and smash your face in with a iron bar or be waiting out side for you to break your legs when you finish work.

[Guest jsa12]

yes it is wrong to blame everyone personally but sadly mud sticks.

 

the underlying culture that has prevailed and deteriorated the excuse being "making life on benefits less comfortable".however the dwp has put so many derogatory statements to the media that benefit claimants are are idle work shy good for nothing "were tackling this now" has done nothing for the perception of the unemployed and their work prospects this may be simply to deflect attention from the realities of the job market and its collapse. together with those forced over many years onto sickness benefits simply because their job prospects were not good over minor complaints ,similarly these are now dwp media focused these people are some how to blame is totally misleading,this has a knock on affect on all those claiming sickness benefits with more serious disabilities also.

 

personally i would not work there and be expected to trump up sanctions,make fools of the general public with lies and deceit and equally make my self look stupid trying to carry these policies trough. but that perhaps has what has got the situation today the way it is.

[Elliebes]

Well said JSA12

[phoenix11]

What is very clear from reading so many stories on various forums, and from talking to others in the same boat, is that the culture and service varies from Job Centre to Job Centre and region to region.

 

I have to say that being long-term unemployed, I've seen quite a few different advisors and a few have been 'difficult' and some very unhelpful. However, I've also had at least twice as many be not only very helpful, but also very understanding.

 

I have come to realise that a lot is down to how I approach them, and if I get the odd ratty one, I just do what I have to do for that moment in time whilst at the JC to ensure that they sign my payments and then leave it all behind and get on with my life - well, my daily round of job searches.

 

In an odd way, it's taught me to let go of a lot of angst because it just isn't worth it - and when something goes right or someone is helpful, I also make sure I let them know that I appreciate their help, and I'm very grateful for it.

 

Things still go pointy-things up, especially when dealing with different departments, but a bit of perserverence usually sorts it out.

 

Personally, I also would find it very difficult to work in a JC because of the pressures from above to reach the Government's targets, having to keep changing methods and practices to try and have a positive effect on reducing job seeker numbers, having to deal with those genuine cases of people who are just stuck as virtually unemployable, and those who are downright rude and agressive ..................................

 

It can't be at all easy.

 

BUT - whatever our experiences out there in the field, here in the forums we are interacting with people like Flumps and Erika who are quite clearly here to help with their expertise and for that we should all be very grateful as it's an invaluable resource.

[Guest jsa12]

the only problems i have witnessed personally are those exhibited by the staff,verbally attacking someone who was attending a local centre for disadvantaged people and may well have a disability audibly to all only her,someone that appeared distressed why am "i being treated like this",and a heated argument that someone that was doing agency work.

 

its not until you put into words my own experiences did it really hit me how horrendous its been,claiming a much muted "jobseekers charter" and "customer service".i am still unemployed its done nothing to improve job prospects but given the fact that the humiliation the government faces of it failures who else are they going to take it all out on,those most vulnerable on benefits.the only claptrap i have heard are for duncan smith and his staff.