Is This Legal

[electron99]

It seems e-bay are not happy with the legality of 'backups'

 

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Are-Backup-Cpoies-Illegal-or-do-they-Infringe-Copyright_W0QQugidZ10000000000870664

[1984ReturnsForReal]

After the events of this week, I will not be divulging any personal or commercial information about our site. Not that I would be witholding the information, but that information we have already (or not) posted to the net this week has seen

* People impersonate us to Nominet - illegally

* Report us to FAST without ANY evidence... FAST agree with us

 

You can see why we are not obliging at the moment.

 

The films you mentioned which are not out in the UK are available for import from other areas around the world which we do import in from a lot of different areas. Again, we would not sell a backup copy UNLESS the client clearly legally states, they already own an imported/or UK owned version of the same media.

 

 

You havent posted any company information on your website or any other website..

 

No VAT Number

No Trading Address

 

You are operating an illegal website. FULL STOP

 

 

& No ADAM BRISTOW, No TIM, No Mark Shaw, No Mush & No Peter.

 

& No operating address from mummies house.

[XLTrading]

Hit the nail on the head there in your last sentence.... "and that the use of it DOES NOT aid piracy or is illegally used" your not ensuring this, merely asking "are you legally allowed this" and then selling it.

 

Let me put this a different way, say a large supermarket chain has a customer buying spirits.... they ask, "are you over 21?" "yes" the customer replies. "ok, we will sell you this then".... not asking for PROOF is breaking the law.

 

I agree on the theory - but in principal we are talking about two different animals entirely.

 

In supermarkets, who have a legal and moral responsibility nowadays to the nations children NOT to allow them to illegally drink underage.

Back in the old days, I am 30 by the way - we were only asked our ages and NEVER had to produce any ID at all.. that was the way it worked back then.

 

Time have changed, and sorry to say it, our youth of today drink too much.. we all know this. But the government with its lax approach to drinking (24 hour drinking law) has allowed this to continue. It is only because the UK is going to the dogs, that a big kerfuffle has been made and you now have to produce ID 'IF' - I say if.... because if you look older than 21- they do not ask. It absolves supermarkets from legally being punished if someone decided to get drunk underage.

 

Tesco's - if you look over 21 by the way (and they can quite easily prove me wrong I am sure) DO NOT ask for ID even if the buyer is younger than they look.

 

Same as on our site - although different medium.

 

We ask, and we have the client signify that they legally own that product before we commence the service and only on that signification, will the service go ahead.

[XLTrading]

You havent posted any company information on your website or any other website..

 

No VAT Number

No Trading Address

 

You are operating an illegal website. FULL STOP

& No ADAM BRISTOW, No TIM, No Mark Shaw, No Mush & No Peter.

& No operating address from mummies house.

 

AND we are off again... and people wonder WHY we are having threads closed?

:-|

 

Why is it can I ask, that when we respond politely, and quite positively on any thread it descends into this?

I really don't understand people and the way they think - I really don't sometimes.

 

I am not blaming anyone on this forum so far apart from this person as we are having, I think anyway, a quite interesting debate and it has for me, been quite interesting tonight on here.

[XLTrading]

It seems e-bay are not happy with the legality of 'backups'

 

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Are-Backup-Cpoies-Illegal-or-do-they-Infringe-Copyright_W0QQugidZ10000000000870664

 

I think personally this is to do with the descriptions of an item.

They can be legally prosecuted IF the item is a copy and is sold on the basis that it is genuine and not advertised as such.

 

To be completely honest, I have bought a couple of DVD's for my partner from eBay especially xmas times (Region 1's) and they have turned out to be copies... we complained as well.

[2ltr16valve]

AND we are off again... and people wonder WHY we are having threads closed?

:-|

 

BUT the question is, can you prove the poster wrong ? with hard evidence that your customers have a legal right to buy what you are selling ? excluding your t&c's which I do not think would protect you from the courts.... look at the case of file sharing site recently. what your doing is no different.... they did not even have the actual files but just an index of where they could be found... yet were convicted on copyright infringement i believe.

[XLTrading]

BUT the question is, can you prove the poster wrong ? with hard evidence that your customers have a legal right to buy what you are selling ? excluding your t&c's which I do not think would protect you from the courts.... look at the case of file sharing site recently. what your doing is no different.... they did not even have the actual files but just an index of where they could be found... yet were convicted on copyright infringement i believe.

 

What you are asking us to do is put information onto a public forum which we are not going to do, as it gets used illegally.. as we have found out this week and why Nominet are in the - shall we say - proverbial dog poo.

 

Again, we would need to see hard evidence from a legal expert on this matter to go over it with a fine tooth comb before we read on a public forum - no offence intended with that.

 

File Sharing - glad you mentioned that as I want to mention the Pirate Bay.

 

Something occured to me today, it has not been mentioned a lot on consumer forums and I think it needs to be discussed.

 

Did the Pirate Bay actually do anything illegal?

I actually think not -because for starters, they did not actually have any illegal media for you to download from.. it all stems from the users of Pirate Bay sharing the torrent which are then held via Pirate Bay.

 

Quite how Pirate Bay can be prosecuted eludes me as they do not issue any software for you to access the torrents, they merely link to the torrents themselves where the files are kept.. which is not the pirate bay.

 

I believe though that movie companies really did have it in for the Pirate Bay - and after hearing some of the reasoning why they were convicted it does seem a bit murky as to why they were.. one theory is that they were somehow linked to someone in organised crime....

[electron99]

 

We ask, and we have the client signify that they legally own that product before we commence the service and only on that signification, will the service go ahead.

 

I am sure you have taken legal advice, but I am not sure asking a customer to tick a box absolves you of all responsibilty.

A defence of someone buying a backup of software they don't own could be that if your service did not exist, they would not have been tempted:-|

 

Others may argue that they ticked to agree to your terms without reading them, which let's face it most of us have done since they tend to be long and boring.

 

You should also be aware that companies such as Microsoft are very agressive and protective towards their products, and may not act in a fair,legal or rational way since they have a multi billion budget for lawyers, as the E.U have found out.

[2ltr16valve]

Many web sites have their vat number on their home page as proof they are legit ... without anyone "impersonating" them. A simple vat number could verify you are trading legit.

Company address, again could be checked.... what use would this be to anyone.... unless of course you do not want any surprise inspections by our lovely government workers ?

 

What you are mistaking here, we do not have to prove you are not legit. You should provide information you are if you have nothing to hide. You could even send a private message to a trusted member with the details to check and verify....

[1984ReturnsForReal]

AND we are off again... and people wonder WHY we are having threads closed?

:-|

 

Why is it can I ask, that when we respond politely, and quite positively on any thread it descends into this?

I really don't understand people and the way they think - I really don't sometimes.

 

I am not blaming anyone on this forum so far apart from this person as we are having, I think anyway, a quite interesting debate and it has for me, been quite interesting tonight on here.

 

 

You run an illegal website.

 

Face it.

[haggis1984]

What you are asking us to do is put information onto a public forum which we are not going to do, as it gets used illegally.. as we have found out this week and why Nominet are in the - shall we say - proverbial dog poo.

 

Again, we would need to see hard evidence from a legal expert on this matter to go over it with a fine tooth comb before we read on a public forum - no offence intended with that.

 

File Sharing - glad you mentioned that as I want to mention the Pirate Bay.

 

Something occured to me today, it has not been mentioned a lot on consumer forums and I think it needs to be discussed.

 

Did the Pirate Bay actually do anything illegal?

I actually think not -because for starters, they did not actually have any illegal media for you to download from.. it all stems from the users of Pirate Bay sharing the torrent which are then held via Pirate Bay.

 

Quite how Pirate Bay can be prosecuted eludes me as they do not issue any software for you to access the torrents, they merely link to the torrents themselves where the files are kept.. which is not the pirate bay.

 

I believe though that movie companies really did have it in for the Pirate Bay - and after hearing some of the reasoning why they were convicted it does seem a bit murky as to why they were.. one theory is that they were somehow linked to someone in organised crime....

 

 

With regard to the bold:

 

Are you saying that you can proove your company breaks no laws, but your unwilling/unable to do so?

 

I noticed that you stated on your website that any publicity is good publicity and these discussions dont bother you. It seems like your prescence on forums and attempts to close down threads just fuel the controversy. If it was my company and I really didnt want any trouble, and was confident that the various regulators could be appeased Id sit back and enjoy the free publicity.

 

Your protestations and threats to close threads just increase suspicion. Either XL geuninely have something to hide or you have stumbled accross a legal loophole and these posts are the start of a massive PR drive. Id suggest the former.

[labrat]

xl yet the pirate bay were convicted making it illegal in law

[1984ReturnsForReal]

Many web sites have their vat number on their home page as proof they are legit ... without anyone "impersonating" them. A simple vat number could verify you are trading legit.

Company address, again could be checked.... what use would this be to anyone.... unless of course you do not want any surprise inspections by our lovely government workers ?

 

What you are mistaking here, we do not have to prove you are not legit. You should provide information you are if you have nothing to hide. You could even send a private message to a trusted member with the details to check and verify....

 

 

No.

 

 

All UK trading websites have to display a trading addresss & their VAT number if they have a VAT Number.

 

Its illegal if they dont.

[XLTrading]

I am sure you have taken legal advice, but I am not sure kepting a customer to tick a box absolves you of all responsibilty.

A defence of someone buying a backup of software they don't own could be that if your service did not exist, they would not have been tempted:-|

 

Others may argue that they ticked to agree to your terms without reading them, which let's face it most of us have done since they tend to be long and boring.

 

You should also be aware that companies such as Microsoft are very agressive and protective towards their products, and may not act in a fair,legal or rational way since they have a multi billion budget for lawyers, as the E.U have found out.

 

I would like to ask that you consult a legal advisor on that point - in regards to the full copyright law in the UK... someone does indeed need to look into this fully and this means sitting down with the complete copyright law word for word and then proving us wrong - unless that happens.. and again, we have been doing this for over three years now with no legal comebacks - some may say that this can be construed as us 'hiding' or them not knowing about us which is incorrect. Google has known for a long while about us, yet has never reported anything on our site, nor do our clients and nor have any other forum, etc online as it cannot legally be proven that we are breaking the law in any way

 

But if they did buy, and blatantly lied to get the software - who is to blame in that measure? We would not be, as we have that failsafe in place which must be addressed by the client before the service can proceed.

Again, this needs to be legally proven the case.

 

If users have not read the terms and conditions because they are 'boring' as you put it - is that not, how should we say, their fault?

We believe so... you should read ANY terms and conditions of a site before using it.

 

I was going to say 'tough really' but I am in a good mood tonight

 

Agreed on Microsoft, but again - the theory is that if they can allow ripping of a CD which let's be honest here.. is not theirs (and I doubt they pay X amount of pounds for me to rip my CD's to the drive) and they can allow a DVD Movie to be played back on the console LEGALLY.. then this is just the same however.. we are employed by a client to make a duplicate for safekeeping in any effect.

 

I pose a question.

Why do Microsoft allow a game to be ripped to a hard drive on the XBOX - without the 100% need for the disc afterwards?

Say for example COD4 - Microsoft do not own the legal rights to this game, so why allow it to be installed to their harddrive?

[2ltr16valve]

..... ignore, did not read poster properly

[haggis1984]

No.

 

 

All UK trading websites have to display a trading addresss & their VAT number if they have a VAT Number.

 

Its illegal if they dont.

 

To be fair a company only has to register for VAT if their annual turnover passes £50k.

 

More concerning is the lack of a registered company number on the site.

[XLTrading]

Many web sites have their vat number on their home page as proof they are legit ... without anyone "impersonating" them. A simple vat number could verify you are trading legit.

Company address, again could be checked.... what use would this be to anyone.... unless of course you do not want any surprise inspections by our lovely government workers ?

 

What you are mistaking here, we do not have to prove you are not legit. You should provide information you are if you have nothing to hide. You could even send a private message to a trusted member with the details to check and verify....

 

And again, after the abuse of our information this week - without our express permission which is ILLEGAL people... do you really think we would make the same mistake again?

 

Obviously this is something need to see on the site, and I agree - if this needs to be done it will be done. We need to distance ourselves from the theory that we are pirates and by updating the contact us on the site, this will do the trick.

 

I am also not PM'ing any details to any members who I do not know.

Sorry.

[2ltr16valve]

intresting whois as well, look at the bit in bold

 

Domain name: 
       xltrading.co.uk 

   Registrant: 
       XL Trading 

   Registrant type: 
       UK Individual 

[b]    Registrant's address: 
       The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their 
       address omitted from the WHOIS service. [/b]

   Registrar: 
       GX Networks Ltd t/a 123-Reg.co.uk [Tag = 123-REG] 
       URL: http://www.123-reg.co.uk 

   Relevant dates: 
       Registered on: 21-Sep-2007 
       Renewal date:  21-Sep-2011 
       Last updated:  07-Sep-2009 

   Registration status: 
       Registered until renewal date. 

   Name servers: 
       ns3.networkoperationcenter.net 
       ns4.networkoperationcenter.net 

   WHOIS lookup made at 18:48:27 07-Oct-2009 

 

publicly available information but if in breach of rules mods feel free to remove.

[2ltr16valve]

And again, after the abuse of our information this week - without our express permission which is ILLEGAL people... do you really think we would make the same mistake again?

 

Obviously this is something need to see on the site, and I agree - if this needs to be done it will be done. We need to distance ourselves from the theory that we are pirates and by updating the contact us on the site, this will do the trick.

 

I am also not PM'ing any details to any members who I do not know.

Sorry.

 

 

but will send your product to people you do not know, presumably with your company information and return address... OR is it a PO BOX address for return ?

[XLTrading]

With regard to the bold:

 

Are you saying that you can proove your company breaks no laws, but your unwilling/unable to do so?

 

I noticed that you stated on your website that any publicity is good publicity and these discussions dont bother you. It seems like your prescence on forums and attempts to close down threads just fuel the controversy. If it was my company and I really didnt want any trouble, and was confident that the various regulators could be appeased Id sit back and enjoy the free publicity.

 

Your protestations and threats to close threads just increase suspicion. Either XL geuninely have something to hide or you have stumbled accross a legal loophole and these posts are the start of a massive PR drive. Id suggest the former.

 

And again, this is why these threads need to be closed.

I am not going over past arguments on other threads as to how and why.

 

You are clearly trolling to see if I will provide any evidence to support any claim that we are illegal at all .. and if I do not provide this, we must be running an illegal service.

 

YET... when details are posted, they are abused and ridiculed.

And Nominet and MSE clearly agree the details posted without our consent were illegal and hence removed.

 

All publicity is good for a business... people will still come to us for our service, there will is no stopping that because at the end of the day, we are all human and we tend not to believe everything we hear, especially on the net

 

Our presence on threads is to justify the means in which we are being persecuted.. if there is no legal evidence to support such a claim as piracy then of course we have every right to defend ourselves.. this is not an admission of guilt at all... Microsoft do the same thing I believe although a hell of a lot stronger.

 

There is NO legal loophole - we keep stating this.

It is either there or its not... and someone needs to prove it is not before these threads keep emerging.. because we challenge anyone in the legal profession to prove what we do is illegal.

 

None of these threads is hurting our business whatsoever.

It merely is increasing new clients to XL however.

 

Of their own free will I might add

[XLTrading]

xl yet the pirate bay were convicted making it illegal in law

 

I would have to look into why though... and the exact nature of the conviction.

I do know that they are out of prison though and have appealed from what I hear but I really need to look more into this.

[1984ReturnsForReal]

To be fair a company only has to register for VAT if their annual turnover passes £50k.

 

More concerning is the lack of a registered company number on the site.

 

 

The threshold is 68k.

 

XL confirmed VAT is charged on the MSE thread.

 

Whats more concerning to me & should be to anyone is that XL blatently believe they are above the law by admitting they do not display the trading address & VAT number.

[XLTrading]

intresting whois as well, look at the bit in bold

 

Domain name: 
       xltrading.co.uk 

   Registrant: 
       XL Trading 

   Registrant type: 
       UK Individual 

[b]    Registrant's address: 
       The registrant is a non-trading individual who has opted to have their 
       address omitted from the WHOIS service. [/b]

   Registrar: 
       GX Networks Ltd t/a 123-Reg.co.uk [Tag = 123-REG] 
       URL: http://www.123-reg.co.uk 

   Relevant dates: 
       Registered on: 21-Sep-2007 
       Renewal date:  21-Sep-2011 
       Last updated:  07-Sep-2009 

   Registration status: 
       Registered until renewal date. 

   Name servers: 
       ns3.networkoperationcenter.net 
       ns4.networkoperationcenter.net 

   WHOIS lookup made at 18:48:27 07-Oct-2009 

 

publicly available information but if in breach of rules mods feel free to remove.

 

As we did explain many times.. hello again by the way everyone

The site is registered to the guy mentioned in other threads.. who is an individual and has NOTHING to do with XL anymore.

 

However, as he owns the .co.uk - he is entitled 'quoted by Nominet employees' to have the WhoIs opt out as a UK individual (who is not legally linked with our site and service - this according to Nominet is acceptable)

 

We do not trade on the .co.uk by the way - we trade from a hosted location in the US - our domain name, links us to the net.. nothing illegal in this.

 

Nominet put the WhoIS opt out back on incidentally - not us.

Edited October 7, 2009 by XLTrading

[XLTrading]

The threshold is 68k.

 

XL confirmed VAT is charged on the MSE thread.

 

Whats more concerning to me & should be to anyone is that XL blatently believe they are above the law by admitting they do not display the trading address & VAT number.

 

And as I mentioned previously, I do not deal with financial matters or tax on the site. But, if we need to put these details on the site, we will look into it.

[XLTrading]

but will send your product to people you do not know, presumably with your company information and return address... OR is it a PO BOX address for return ?

 

Sorry, I am trying to respond as fast as I can tonight on everything.

 

We do provide an address to return items to which is the team in our returns department who check every item upon receipt back to us.

 

Again, we are not uncontactable at all - we do not hold a PO Box as well at the moment but we are looking into this as this may be a more professional way of dealing with our clients we believe.