why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[B3rty]

I previously posted this but I have a found a SAR to the OC followed by a complaints letter if the signed agreement isn't provided will work.

 

The complaint is dealt with under the complaints proceedure..its a different department with a different agenda and if you tell them that to satisfy your complaint you need either a copy of the original signed agreement or acknowledgement that none exisits they normally just write back and say that non exisits but under SI 1983-1557 a copy is all thats required.

Edited March 12, 2009 by B3rty

[charliebubs]

i have now sar barclaycard and am waiting to hear back. after reading from everyones threads it is most likly going to be more t and c.

 

Quick question - sorry to thread jack - where is the letter for SAR credit card companies on here? The only one I can find is in relation to bank charges. Or do I just adapt that??

 

Many thanks

CB

[davey77]

Here is a good SAR:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/186002-rbs-default-notice.html#post2004681

 

(Adapt as required)

[charliebubs]

Thanks Davey - you are a star!!

[monkey_uk]

Guys,

 

I've submitted a s78request to HSBC for the GFs card.

 

The debt is not overdue or in default, she merely believes that they do not hold a signed and legal credit agreement.

 

They've replied by sending a blank application form and a copy of the T&Cs, as can be seen on my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/185292-monkey_uk-hsbc-cca-g.html

 

Where do I go from here? Any advice appreciated.

 

TIA.

[AA99]

Guys,

 

I've submitted a s78request to HSBC for the GFs card.

 

The debt is not overdue or in default, she merely believes that they do not hold a signed and legal credit agreement.

 

They've replied by sending a blank application form and a copy of the T&Cs, as can be seen on my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/185292-monkey_uk-hsbc-cca-g.html

 

Where do I go from here? Any advice appreciated.

 

TIA.

 

Have you claimed all your charges back? Is that what you're trying to do?

[monkey_uk]

only maybe 1 or 2 charges ever levied azgainst the account - no claims ever made for these refunding.

 

Her desire is to prove that there is no compliant credit agreement, and thus have the debt made unenforcable.

[militantconsumer]

I've submitted a s78request to HSBC for the GFs card.

 

They've replied by sending a blank application form and a copy of the T&Cs

 

Where do I go from here?

 

Have you read page 1 of this thread? This is the suggested procedure to obtain either a copy of the document, or an admission that they do not hold it.

[angel_1]

hiya all

 

just trying to help gary on his thread - he has had a reply from barclaycard which we both think in reflection to the cpr requests he sent

 

would you kindly all take a look and see what actions now needed it looks like a new template letter on its way to all us that have done the cpr requests to barclaycard

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/188960-gary68-barclaycard-new-reply.html

 

many thanks im yet to receive anything yet but lets see if others may have

 

thanks laters angel x:)

[Last of the Mohicans]

Hi all, firstly I'd like to thank PT for starting this thread and doing all the hoof-work. Thank you

 

Secondly, I'd like to use the said CPR 31.16 against C*bot, but before I do I'd like to run it past anyone interested for advice, and particularly PT, obviously.

I confess, I havent managed to read the whole thread (yet) so forgive me (and point out) if my circumstances coincide with anything already covered.

 

OK, C*bot have an Equitable Charge on my house. This was obtained late last year, based on an aged "debt" they bought. It was probably time barred, but I didnt realise about such things then. However, after they couldnt get hold of me (I wasnt responding to them, for various reasons) they harrased and badgered someone I know (a third party) and then went to court, I didnt contest as I wasnt aware being out of the country) and were duly awarded the EC.

 

Due to a) being a fool, I now realise, and b) getting ear-ache from the harrasessed third party, and c) being scared of their threatened repo, I went into an arrangement with them, a pitiful amount each month but all I can afford, of which I have paid two payments.

 

I CCA`d and SAR'd them the other day, and yesterday got a reply to the CCA stating "they werent obliged to carry out my request".

 

This I find mind bogggling, since they have gone to court on the basis of owning an agreement they wont supply a copy of.

 

In reply, I wish to use (or abuse ) PTs "First Letter" thus, and with an additional couple of paras suggested by Banker Rhymes With in this post

With here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1869833.html which I’ve marked in red.

 

So heres my total letter, and I would be obliged for any comments or advice prior to it hitting the post later today.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:-- ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation, and your letter dated XX XXX 2009 (copy enclosed) in reply to my request dated XX XXX 2009 made pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. (copy enclosed)

 

I am dissatisfied with your response, and believe you to be obligated to supply a true copy of the agreement you have previously represented yourselves as owning both to me, unrelated third parties and to XXXXXX County Court.

 

I respectfully request that within the Statutory Period you provide me a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature.

 

Please confirm if you are in a position to make a copy of the Original Agreement, and confirm if this will involve making copies of more than one Page.

 

If you are in a position to make new copies from the Original Agreement, please ensure that any such fresh copes include a signed confirmation that they were copied directly from the Original, stating the date when the copies were made from the Original. Please also advise the name of the person who made the copies so that, if needed, they can be called as a Witness to confirm the copies were indeed taken directly from the Original Agreement.

 

If you cannot make new copies taken directly from the Original Agreement, please confirm why not.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore an unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the Statutory Period for compliance.

 

 

In conclusion I want this charge off my property, and I'm quite prepared to go for them on it, so any advice on how to go about that (including getting the claim re-heard) would be great.

 

Cheers

 

Mo

[heliosfa]

were you out of the country when they initially got the CCJ (by default I assume?) against you? Did you inform them you were out of the country?

 

IF so, you may be able to get the judgement set asside and the case re-heard. Judgement being set aside should also deal with the charging order. Obviously when it goes through being reheard, you can ask for disclosure of the documents and get them that way.

 

How long has it been since they got judgement, and how long after that did they go for the CO?

 

I'd just get confirmation of this from a more knowledgeable bod as i'm still new here

[Last of the Mohicans]

were you out of the country when they initially got the CCJ (by default I assume?) against you? Did you inform them you were out of the country?

 

No, I wasnt getting my post regularly, which kind of makes it my fault I suppose, whatever the good reasons...

 

IF so, you may be able to get the judgement set asside and the case re-heard. Judgement being set aside should also deal with the charging order. Obviously when it goes through being reheard, you can ask for disclosure of the documents and get them that way.

 

How long has it been since they got judgement, and how long after that did they go for the CO?

 

Um, mid october, followed by the full monty in mid november. However, theres only the interim one on my property at the LR.

 

I'd just get confirmation of this from a more knowledgeable bod as i'm still new here

 

No worries, me too, and I appretiate your help.

[AA99]

I've just sent off 2 x CPR31.16' this week for the first time and only in the absence of a credit card agreement.... waiting for replies and hopefully we will all be wiser this time next week, I'll love it when they all run out of regulations and statutes.............

[craigers]

I think its well known that CPR31.16 does not apply to people living in Scotland. But if a card/loan is taken out under English Law, could it be argued that a CPR31.16 request must be adhered to?

[davefirewalker]

 

I CCA`d and SAR'd them the other day, and yesterday got a reply to the CCA stating "they werent obliged to carry out my request".

 

This I find mind bogggling, since they have gone to court on the basis of owning an agreement they wont supply a copy of.

 

A CCA request is only valid if made during the term of the agreement...once the agreement has ended you cannot make a cca request.

 

An SAR should get the required docs though or the CPR route set out here on this thread

 

Dave

[B3rty]

Dave...isn't this a grey area which Rankine has fueled as many DCAs will provide a CCA after termination.

[The GodMother]

Rankine is wrong and everybody knows that. Ask any DECENT legal prpffessional.

[the_shadow]

Can someone knowledgeable in court procedures comment on the following...

 

Another CAGger got this response to his CPR to Cap1

 

Letter Page1

Letter Page2

 

His thread is here >> cap1 cpr refusal

 

They seem to be implying that they wont be relying on the original agreement in any court action, is this some rankine left over that they are sprouting?

 

PmW

[underdog13]

If they have such confidence in their agreements, why won't they provide one?

[heliosfa]

Probably because they want to keep you guessing and delay. The less certain you are, the less likely you will be to take them to court.

 

Court can be expensive for companies who hire a local solicitor, especially in small claims as there are limited costs, and they want to try and avoid it.

[conar686]

also on OP thread

 

Having some experience of Ms R*nshaw (not in the biblical sense of course) she is very good at stone walling and prevarication when it comes to agreements.

 

You will get to the point where once you get her final response she will politely refer you to the FOS

 

I think though a response that included reference to CPR 16.7.3 may blow her response re admissibility of agreements out of the water.

 

7.3

 

Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing, and

 

(2) any general conditions of sale incorporated in the contract should also be attached (but where the contract is or the documents constituting the agreement are bulky this practice direction is complied with by attaching or serving only the relevant parts of the contract or documents).

 

A tack I've taken recently with her

[the_shadow]

also on OP thread

 

Having some experience of Ms R*nshaw (not in the biblical sense of course) she is very good at stone walling and prevarication when it comes to agreements.

 

You will get to the point where once you get her final response she will politely refer you to the FOS

 

I think though a response that included reference to CPR 16.7.3 may blow her response re admissibility of agreements out of the water.

 

 

 

A tack I've taken recently with her

 

Thanks Conar686 I've stored that away for future use:) As regards the comment about costs though, I understand from PT's first couple of posts that if we can prove the pre-action protocols have been broken then costs most likely WONT be awarded the defendant...

 

What are the pre-action protocols though, I couldnt get my head around what was what on the link that PT provided.

 

[PLEASE IGNORE: Just spent 30mins reading them ]

 

PmW

Edited March 15, 2009 by pmw1971

[pt2537]

Can someone knowledgeable in court procedures comment on the following...

 

Another CAGger got this response to his CPR to Cap1

 

Letter Page1

Letter Page2

 

His thread is here >> cap1 cpr refusal

 

They seem to be implying that they wont be relying on the original agreement in any court action, is this some rankine left over that they are sprouting?

 

PmW

What a load of nonsense

 

They would be obliged under standard disclosure to disclose otherwise they would NOT be able to rely upon the credit agreement

 

Secondly, my reply would be that it has come to my attention that certain credit agreements isssued at around the time i entered into my agreement with cap one were missing certain information which would not have afforded me the statutory information that the CCA 1974 requires

 

at the time of entry into credit i was a consumer who was not well versed with consumer law, however i have been advised of the form and content requirements of an agreement and the consequences of non compliance.

 

therefore, i require a copy of the agreement i entered into with your company to place it before solicitors to have it assessed for compliance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I have concerns by your response so i must ask you to confirm, and would point out that you are obliged to answer this question, do you still hold a complete copy of my credit agreement that i signed with your organisation?

 

If you do then please advise and if you do not then i require confirmation of this point.

 

 

They really are dumbasses:)

[the_shadow]

What a load of nonsense

 

They really are dumbasses:)

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply PT, as always very much appreciated.

 

PmW

[louloujs]

Subbing, excellent thread, have realised i've missed breakfast and lunch since I started reading...