why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[A+]

Great tip as i have many of these duped and all contacting me from different operating names. God knows why, i don't anyone a penny, not unless they PROVE otherwise. Short pier and long walk comes to mind

[underdog13]

Durgh:eek: After all this time, I didn't know that, I have paid £10 per account:-o

 

Aaaah, sorry to hear that AA99:(

[lexis200]

If it's any consolation AA, I didn't know either until I sent the tenner off for a Halifax account and got that and two BOS ones back.

 

They should have sent the overpayments back to you though surely, as they can only accept a maximum of £10? If all accounts under one large umbrella company are included, they'll know that and have therefore taken too much for an SAR request.

 

When I did the Halifax request I only used that account number and said credit card, not cards in my letter, so they obviously are well aware of what it required from them if they still sent 3 lots back.

[joneseyblod]

HSBC like you to think differently, apparently HSBC bank and the HSBC Insurance department are two seperate companies and despite three letters and enclosing proof that SAR are per organisation they wont budge.

[lexis200]

HSBC like you to think differently, apparently HSBC bank and the HSBC Insurance department are two seperate companies and despite three letters and enclosing proof that SAR are per organisation they wont budge.

 

Tsk tsk. Would reporting them to the ICO make them budge?

[citizenB]

HSBC like you to think differently, apparently HSBC bank and the HSBC Insurance department are two seperate companies and despite three letters and enclosing proof that SAR are per organisation they wont budge.

 

Tsk tsk. Would reporting them to the ICO make them budge?

 

This is absolutely true Jonesy. However, I have made a complaint to the ICO pointing out that it was HSBC that sold the insurance to OH and at point of sale did not advise that they were only acting as agents. Therefore they should be the ones doing the leg work not me.. especially as they mis sold the insurance in the first place and then when asked for paperwork provided me with dead end addresses, contacts and the like.

[the_shadow]

This is absolutely true Jonesy. However, I have made a complaint to the ICO pointing out that it was HSBC that sold the insurance to OH and at point of sale did not advise that they were only acting as agents. Therefore they should be the ones doing the leg work not me.. especially as they mis sold the insurance in the first place and then when asked for paperwork provided me with dead end addresses, contacts and the like.

 

Got the same issue with PPI on my mortgage through halifax, apparently it was some irish insurance firm that halifax were using... well I just went through halifax so how would I know.

 

Thanks for the above, I'll send a letter to halifax stating they didnt state the fact it wasnt with them and they should pay the fee for the SAR:):) and complain to the ICO when they refuse :D:D

[ukmp3]

Just coming to the end of the first end of waiting time after sending the first letter.

 

Getting ready to send the second letter (on page 1) but (and I have read through the tread - all 36 pages!) is there anything that has changed or is the template still ok to use from page 1?

 

Many thanks for any help

(manun tread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/174034-halifax-sends-cca-fob-3.html)

[chrisofoak]

Hi, great work on this thread, have issues with Capital One, sent the first letter following recept of a copy of agreement terms ONLY, no signature, after requesting under consumer credit. I've just receive a letter stating the following:

 

"We do not accept that your request satisfies the criteria at CPR31.16. In particular, we do not believe that a copy of your original agreement would have to be disclosed under CPR 31.6 as a part of our standard disclosure obligations. This is because, in essence, it is your case that you are entitled to a copy of the original agreement. It is our case you are not. This is an issue for the courts to decide. The disclosure of the agreement itself will not help a court decide the issue. It is not therefore a document which will adversely affect either party's case, or support your case and your request does not satisfy the criteria under CPR 31.16.

 

We shall refer this letter to the court if regardless of the above, you decide to make an application under CPR 31.16. We will lso seek costs incurred in dealing with the application, which we are entitled to under CPR 48.1

 

As I have already explained, in accordance with section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 and the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copy documents) regulations 193, we've provided you with a copy of your agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature were omitted from the copy provided as permitted under regulation 3 of the consumer credit(cancellation notices and copy documents) regulations 1983.

 

You clearly have a valid and enforceable credit agreement with capital one, as evidenced by the documents sent to you and any claim to th contrary will be strongly defended.

 

Then various threats about continue pursuit of th debt, and a last note stating this is their final response.

 

Sounds like a challenge to me, also souds like they don't have the agreement OR do they!!!!

 

Any thought's or comments

Thanks

Chris

[A+]

Gut feeling? NO they don't, but thats just gut feeling.

Put it this way, if I WAS THEM, and i wanted that money from you, i would DISCLOSE EVERYTHING to make you see there is no point running. I wouldn't dilly dally around with legal argument, i would say HERE IT IS SUNSHINE, PAY UP. The fact that they have also not included signatures tells me (just opinion here!) that they are bluffing and counting on you not having the wherewithall, money or skill to go to COURT.

I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH! Just a gut reaction.

[the_shadow]

Any thought's or comments

Thanks

Chris

 

Hi Chris, you need to read back about 15-20 posts and you'll see other people/myself included have had this response from crapone... basically it just means you need to tweak the second letter to ensure its set out exactly how you meet the cpr rules for disclosure.

 

PmW

[chrisofoak]

At the same time received a letter threatening to send the boys round from POWER2CONNECT

 

"We have been instructed by our client to VISIT YOUR ADDRESS TO COLLECT THE ABOVE DEBT.

 

You have made this action necessary as you have ignored all their requests to contact them and you have failed to pay you account.

 

Our visits take place within the following hours:-

 

Monday-Friday 9am - 8pm

Saturday 9am-12 noon

 

Should you wish to avoid this action, you must contact our instructing agent WITHIN 72 HOURS of receipt of this notice:-"

 

Unbelieveable such a letter could come from a suposive mainstream legal regulated organisation, I was considering weather to sue for mental harrasment.

[lexis200]

Hi, great work on this thread, have issues with Capital One, sent the first letter following recept of a copy of agreement terms ONLY, no signature, after requesting under consumer credit. I've just receive a letter stating the following:

 

"We do not accept that your request satisfies the criteria at CPR31.16. In particular, we do not believe that a copy of your original agreement would have to be disclosed under CPR 31.6 as a part of our standard disclosure obligations. This is because, in essence, it is your case that you are entitled to a copy of the original agreement. It is our case you are not. This is an issue for the courts to decide. The disclosure of the agreement itself will not help a court decide the issue. It is not therefore a document which will adversely affect either party's case, or support your case and your request does not satisfy the criteria under CPR 31.16. Of course it would be relevant and would affect one or other of you adversely if you were going to court regarding the enforceability or otherwise of the agreement. It would either prove it was legit or not. I don't understand their 'reasoning' here at all.

 

We shall refer this letter to the court if regardless of the above, you decide to make an application under CPR 31.16. We will lso seek costs incurred in dealing with the application, which we are entitled to under CPR 48.1

 

As I have already explained, in accordance with section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974 and the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copy documents) regulations 193, we've provided you with a copy of your agreement, and if any terms have been varied, then the copy will include the updated terms. In addition, your personal details, the signature box, signature and date of signature were omitted from the copy provided as permitted under regulation 3 of the consumer credit(cancellation notices and copy documents) regulations 1983. If they have just sent current t's and c's, or the usual one sided document that has a typed 'this is a copy of your conusmer credit agreement' or similar on the other side, then no they haven't. They need to send either a copy of the actual agreement, or failing that a copy that is the same in both form and content to the original, the historic terms that go with it, and current terms. They sent me the above in response to my CCA request, then when I SAR'd them sent a signed application form, completely different in form and content, so they hadn't complied with the CCA in more ways than one.

 

You clearly have a valid and enforceable credit agreement with capital one, as evidenced by the documents sent to you and any claim to th contrary will be strongly defended. No, you have simply at some point spent some money on a Capital One card, you have not clearly got an enforceable agreement just because they send you a generic page of t's and c's.

 

Then various threats about continue pursuit of th debt, and a last note stating this is their final response.

 

Sounds like a challenge to me, also souds like they don't have the agreement OR do they!!!! They may well have more - you'd need to SAR them to find out (they can't decide an agreement isn't a necessary inclusion if you ask for it in that). The good news is though that even though they sent an application for me after I SAR'd them, it's not worth the paper it's printed on, so you may well get lucky:)

Any thought's or comments

Thanks

Chris

 

I have no idea though if they can just refuse a CPR request, someone else would have to comment. As I said above, I do think it's an odd argument for them to use if they don't want to supply under it, as it would make every difference if you ended up in court.

 

Lexis:)

[lexis200]

I've been using this doorstep caller letter recently - the last bit was added on when I got thoroughly hacked off with BOS, it's not part of the original, but I'm happy enough to invoice them if anyone does turn up.

 

Should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives, to visit me at my property, and if you do so you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

In addition to this, if you ignore my refusal to give you permission to visit my property and continue with any kind of home visit, you will be invoiced £50 for the use of my footpath, which is private property.

[chrisofoak]

Thanks PmW will take a look and thanks for all the replies above

[militantconsumer]

This is because, in essence, it is your case that you are entitled to a copy of the original agreement. It is our case you are not. This is an issue for the courts to decide.

 

My view on this letter is that Cap One are responding as if you are claiming to be entitled to a copy of your agreement under s77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

They are saying that supplying you with a copy of your agreement will not help you to determine whether you are entitled to a copy of it or not.

 

They are absolutely right that this would be the case in such a situation.

 

However, this is not such a situation.

 

In fact you are threatening to bring a claim under s142 (declaration of the rights of parties) with respect to s127 (whether the agreement is enforceable or not).

 

Or you are threatening to bring some other action, for example a claim for mis-sold payment protection insurance (a misrepresented contract, or a failure of consideration, etc).

 

So you are using CPR 31.16 for standard disclosure of the relevant documents, just as you would in any civil case on any matter, not just an agreement regulated under the CCA 1974.

 

It is important to make this clear to them by writing a follow up letter - otherwise you are more likely to be liable for costs, as you have not acted reasonably in helping to clear up the "misunderstanding" before going ahead and initiating legal proceedings.

[AA99]

I was about to use the CPR route to force (AA99 v Capital One) them to produce my CCA without all their come-back with this reg, that reg, and have an ICO Case No. received today so will forward that on to them and Freds who have sent me another threatening letter, also received today.

[A+]

Lexis, i have to say, your letter for doorstep callers is SUPERB!!!!!!!!

If you don't mind, i am cutting that and pasting into a doc for future reference, BRILLIANT!!

[basa48]

Lexis, i have to say, your letter for doorstep callers is SUPERB!!!!!!!!

If you don't mind, i am cutting that and pasting into a doc for future reference, BRILLIANT!!

 

Ditto Lexis, never know when it might be useful

[the_shadow]

Dear Sir/Madam

Regarding Acc. No.

Thank you for your letter dated 2nd March 2009.

We are not able to send a copy of your agreement at this stage, as your request needs to be submitted to the relevant address below.enclosing the statutory fee of £1.

 

 

hahaha, how dumb are some of these people.... all they seem capable of doing is churning out template letters:mad:

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974

[angel_1]

hiya

 

its all about delay tactics im sure,,,,,so in your next letter

 

in

Big capital letters,

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Dont think they will miss that hey;)

laters dudes angel x

[JGJ]

`LlOYDS really do step up to the plate and soar above all others, YES!! they really are a bunch of " LEADING *ANKERS "

 

Letter 2 straight back to them on Mon. Not in any mood to play their stupid games over my Legal request. EXTRA EXTRA large lettering so their machines humanoid or other can read. to them.

 

Thanks for your replies I really appreciate them.

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

[JGJ]

Could a site helper/mod please copy/move my post #731 to the Lloyds Bank post as I need to open a new thread on this matter.

 

Many thanks

 

"EXEMPLO DUCEMUS"

[frandition]

Having received a letter from barclaycard stating "this completes our obligation to you under section 78 of the consumer credit act 1974" it seems I need to try another tactic.

 

I do think it is right that I get my agreement, and will do what is necessary to get it. I am worried that I may do so, and end up having to pay the full amount- and or court charges if I decide to take them to court.

 

I have spent more in interest than I have probably done using the card, and though barclaycard refunded £500 approx to my card for charges incurred, this does not compare to the interest paid. I have experienced nothing but trouble with them- my cards details were replaced by a russian chap. Though they replaced them, a year later his phone numbers reappeared recently on my account as contact numbers!!

 

I have started a separate thread if anyone can offer some help that would be great!!

[lexis200]

Lexis, i have to say, your letter for doorstep callers is SUPERB!!!!!!!!

If you don't mind, i am cutting that and pasting into a doc for future reference, BRILLIANT!!

 

Ditto Lexis, never know when it might be useful

 

Thanks chaps - I'd like to take credit but only the last bit is mine (I do enjoy telling them they're going to be paying me, even if I know it'll be ignored:D), the rest is by another member, who unfortunately I can't name as this letter has been reproduced many times and I have no idea who the originator was:)

 

I think we all thank you for it though!