My debt... more from the dreaded HFO Services *** Discontinued ***

[Innsmouth]

EDIT: please note the dates of the posts, as I've bumped my own thread which was active over a year ago!

 

This is my first post, although I've searched the forums and read up a lot on HFO Services so far but wanted to start my own post instead of hijacking someone else's.

 

Basically, I had a Barclaycard years ago which I ended up missing payments for. I had actually moved house and sent them TWO change of address forms and simply heard nothing back from them, and just kept forgetting to call them...

 

A little later I lost my job at the time and was obviously concerned with my immediate situation, so my creditcard issues were put to one side for quite some time.

 

(I've actually been made redundant from SIX different jobs and suffered a couple more redundancies during this period of time.)

 

A couple of years or so later and I received mail saying I had been passed onto a DCA (although I cannot remember the name of them) and managed to actually pay some of my debt off. The DCA were meant to send me a payment plan in the post but I never received this.

 

After moving house again I sent them a change of address form and still heard nothing back.

 

At the end of last year my girlfriend and I began looking for a house. Our mortgage advisor ran an online credit check on us both (with our permission, of course) and I was surprised to see that the only defaults that came up were from Barclaycard 2 years ago -- no mention of the DCA.

 

We successfully got a mortgage and bought our house, which we have lived in happily for 6 months now.

 

A few weeks ago I received a call from someone saying they had purchased my Barclaycard Debt and wanted to confirm my address - which I gave them - in order to send me some details. I assume these were HFO Services but found the person on the phone very difficult to understand at the time.

 

Last week I received a call from someone at HFO Services asking me for the balance in full of around £1600, which I said I was unable to pay. The caller then said the minimum they would accept as a monthly payment was £140 and asked me for my debit card details to take the first payment over the phone.

 

I said that I had not received anything in writing from them and under no circumstances was I going to give my debit card details over the phone, as I had no guarantee of who they were. The caller took my email address and said she would email me the appropriate paperwork and asked if I could call back the following day -- I said that this was OK but it had to be mid-afternoon as I had an important client meeting in the morning.

 

Sure enough, during my important meeting I faintly heard my phone vibrating in my jacket and checked the message to confirm it was from HFO -- ringing at precisely the time I had asked them NOT to call.

 

I have not returned their call as I wanted to ask for advice before doing so. I have received an email from the caller, containing a poorly layed out and quite unprofessional looking Word document but have not replied.

 

Firstly, (for once) I am in a much better situation financially and DO want to be free of my debt, however, £140 a month is way more than 10% of my disposable income (which I understand is what I would be ordered to pay if taken to court?).

 

What options do I have -- can they really dictate how much I must pay monthly, or is this purely scare tactics?

 

Last year I successfully reclaimed my bank charges from my bank account -- is this something I could potentially do with my Barclaycard also, even though it has now been passed onto a DCA?

 

From my dealings so far, I do NOT like this company at all and if I were to pay back my debt I would much rather do it through some other debt consolidation service -- any recommendations as to where to look for this?

 

I appreciate my questions have probably been asked millions of times before but frank and honest advice would be much appreciated!! Thank you in advance!

Edited July 20, 2010 by Innsmouth

[42man]

If it was me in your position I would initially send them a request for your Consumer Credit Agreement which you can find here.... you need to send this by recorded/guaranteed delivery, and you need to send it with a £1 postal order. DO NOT HAND SIGN IT...

 

Letter 'N' - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

Also do not get into dialogue on the phone with them, as they WILL LIE to frighten you into paying.....you must get everything in wiritng....

 

Also enclose this letter too...

 

Re: Harassment by telephone

 

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX

 

Dear Sirs

 

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

 

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)

 

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

 

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

 

Be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded. (**Even if you don‘t yet have recording equipment!!**)

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

[NAME HERE]

.

If they continue to call you after the receipt of your letter write down EVERY TIME AND DATE they call....

[Innsmouth]

Thanks 42Man, I will do!

 

I was unsure what a CCA was initially but now I understand and will request one right away.

[djdave]

Even if they do come up with an agreement AND it's enforcable (unlikely), you should only offer to pay what you can genuinely afford. Make sure that you do so via letter in case they turn round in the future and claim you offered more. Also ensure that you are in control of the payments, eg a standing order. Do NOT let them get your debit card details as a continuous payment is almost impossible to cancel.

 

If and when you get your "agreement" back, you'll be in a much stronger position.

[djdave]

It's worth taking a few minutes to familiarise yourself with the OFT guidelines on unfair practice which can be found in a sticky on this forum, or here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

 

For example, regarding the £140/month, the OFT say this is likely to be psychological harassment:

 

f. pressurising debtors to pay in full, in unreasonably large instalments,

or to increase payments when they are unable to do so

 

It's a very useful document to quote in your letters

Edited July 1, 2008 by djdave
Hit the wrong button because I'm a numpty sometimes

[Innsmouth]

(5th post so I can follow this up with one containing an image...)

[Innsmouth]

I sent my CCA request by Recorded delivery last week and received this back yesterday:

 

 

Firstly, this is clearly not a copy of the "true agreement" which I requested in the CCA letter; and secondly, with my letter to them I also enclosed a letter complaining of telephone harrassment and said I would communicate with them IN WRITING ONLY. So it did make me chuckle that their response is to ask me to speak to them on the telephone! Idiots...

 

Should I essentially ignore this letter and continue to count down the 14 days; or should I respond telling them that this is not what I asked for?

 

I am hoping this can be ignored! Thanks all.

[PGH7447]

This is just a notice of assignment it is not a CCA in any shape or form, this just shows you that they have bought this debt by Barclay's.

 

so if they still havent produced a Credit Agreement, then they still are not allowed to demand monies from you, also if they do produce a valid agreement, then send them a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to see if any unlawful charges have been added then you can claim them back from HFO, that will really make them fume

 

and yes ignore it, especially has it seems to contain threatening statements like we will sue you

[F_DCAs]

I'd forward a copy of that straight to the OFT, and possibly even make it a criminal matter. 'No hesitation in suing you'? Ffs...

[Innsmouth]

Further update: another letter arrived today containing my uncashed Postal Order.

 

They clearly don't seem to think they need to provide a CCA!

 

I will draft up a letter to the OFT as after giving their letter further thought, ignoring my perfectly legal request and instead responding with a threat is completely unnacceptable.

[lookinforinfo]

There really is no reason to worry about companies like HFO. They are so certain to ignore even the basic rules on debt collection that you can kick them into the long grass whenever you feel like it. As long as you do not talk to them on the phone as they can get into your head then.

The ones to be concerned about are the ones that know the Law and abide by it. I haven't come across one yet but one day perhaps one of them will get the message.......................

[ScarletPimpernel]

I don't think the unnecessarily threatening letter above is a valid letter of assignment, since it did not come from the original creditor. Cabot and Robinson Way take the trouble to fake OC's letterheads - HFO don't seem to have bothered.

 

There's no point contacting the OFT at this point, since HFO are not yet in default of your CCA request. The OFT don't deal with individual consumer complaints; you have to complain to your local Trading Standards and ask them to pass it to HFO's local TS office. Ultimately, you can complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service, but you have to go thorugh HFO's complaint procedure (or wait 8 weeks, if they don't respond) first.

 

The first sentence of HFO's letter is key. They bought a debt including all legal rights and obligations - this includes their obligations under s.189 (absolute assignment) or s.175 (simple assignment). The letter almost certainly contravenes the OFT guidance, and also CPUTR because it is clearly designed to apply psychological pressure. It also omits material fact - i.e. that they would need to prove the debt and obtain a county court judgment, upon which you would need to default, before enforcement is possible.

 

Did their second letter state that they weren't obliged to provide a CCA? If so, this is also a definate breach of CPUTR.

 

In any case, they are full of pish and wind. You have properly served them with a formal request, for which they will have signed (assuming you sent it by recorded delivery). If they choose not to charge you for it, that's a matter for them. It's extremely unlikely that they'll bring a county court claim within the statutory time limit for compliance with a CCA request. All you need to do now is wait for them to default. They may send increasingly hysterical letters, but there's no need to respond unless they send something they claim is an agreement. Experience shows that Barclaycard are unlikely to be able to produce anything enforceable.

[Rob M]

hi all

i have been dealing with HFO for many months, i actually enjoy winding them up on the phone, i stated to them that i had sent a CCA and would not speak to them on the phone untill this was fourth-coming, and wait for it, you will laugh, the 'gentleman' at the other end said he had full legal right to phone me everyday and do not deal or are affiliated to CCA, and therefore did not have to abide by 'thier rules'. i asked him if he was familiar with the company CCA and he replied yes i have heard of them but they carry no weight with us, he hung up after about 4 minutes of me continuously laughing at him down the phone.

i also requested thier address and offered to have a face to face where he could show me the CCA , however he would only give a po box, so i continued the rest of the conversation only saying the word 'arse', when he became irrate and started to shout i just said arse louder.

they also use a dialler, best way to deal with this is to answer wait to be connected to a weesel at the other end then hang up.

 

probably not the best advice you can get here but i have turned an annoying situation into my enjoyment.

all this after i have reported them to surrey police twice and they are now in breach of the administration of justice act and the communications act

 

don't let the bastards grind you down.

[The Convincer]

One of them told me that they'd recieved no letter, despite me having proof that they signed for it. Another one told me that their department hadn't had any details passed on. I guess India is a long way away from West Byfleet. Then again, it's only a phone call away.

[Innsmouth]

There's no point contacting the OFT at this point, since HFO are not yet in default of your CCA request.

 

*snip*

 

Did their second letter state that they weren't obliged to provide a CCA? If so, this is also a definate breach of CPUTR.

 

In any case, they are full of pish and wind. You have properly served them with a formal request, for which they will have signed (assuming you sent it by recorded delivery).

 

A little late in my reply, as I've been swamped with work but I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for your thorough response ScarletPimpernel, that really makes things clear for me now.

 

They have not directly stated that they are not obliged to provide a CCA, merely inferred it in the paragraph you highlighted and in returning the PO.

 

And the request was indeed sent recorded and was definitely signed for.

 

HFO seem like such a nasty bunch, I am very happy to be in a position of having the legal upperhand with them.

 

Thanks once again to everyone providing such fantastic help on these forums.

[Innsmouth]

Update: I received a call just now from one of the HFO tele-drones, despite having requested both on the phone and in writing that they communicate with me in writing ONLY.

 

The lady on the line confirmed that they had received my CCA request letter and the postal order, and that they had returned this. Then she attempted to baffle me with the following display of clever logic:

 

She basically said that me sending a letter requesting a copy of the agreement confirms that I legally acknowledge the debt, and therefore that they do not need to provide a copy of the CCA.

 

(Interestingly, the very top of my letter to them reads "I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY")

 

I laughed heartily and interrupted to say that what I had requested was a copy of a document that they must provide in order to legally prove they have any rights to the debt in question, and that had she even READ the letter (which I know she will not have done, since it was not addressed to a call center in India...) she would know that I have filed a harrassment letter against them for calling me against my wishes, and not communicating in writing only, as requested.

 

I finished my statement with the words, "This conversation is now over," and hung up. :grin:

 

I actually feel pretty awesome right now. 8-)

[mr.ton]

I actually feel pretty awesome right now. 8-)

 

Dont worry...once you are able to start laughing at them down the phone & telling them what powers/authority they dont have - you'll feel even better

[Innsmouth]

OK, since the last call I have received two further calls from HFO. The first caller asked me my name and then hung up. The second call was received at 8am Saturday morning (there went my lie in) and I was again hung up on.

 

Is it worth sending a follow up letter of complaint or should I be contacting Trading Standards, FOS, Ofcom, or perhaps all three? I read that some people have actually gone to the Police?!

 

If I actually get to speak to the caller, at least I can inform them I will communicate in writing only, but them calling me and hanging up is very clearly nothing but harrassment.

 

What would be the most effective way of making these calls stop?

[Innsmouth]

UPDATE

 

I am still receiving phone calls from HFO every couple of days but no longer answer them. On one occasion they left me an answerphone message consisting of strange music (perhaps some insideous new tactic?)!

 

I got in touch with Consumer Direct (who seem to be the first point of contact before being passed on to Trading Standards) to explain the situation and complain about the phone calls.

 

I received a response by email which stated "it is usual practice for debt collection agencies to contact debtors by telephone and they are not usually legally obliged to have to keep all communication in writing" and was advised to contact the Police should I wish to try and take this further.

 

The email also stated that if HFO did not respond to my CCA request within 30 days then "they may be committing an offense." I was advised to get back in touch if this is the case and my case will be transferred to Trading Standards for their consideration.

 

I received another letter from HFO yesterday saying they were prepared to offer me a "substantial discount on my outstanding balance" but only if I responded within 5 days; they also said they would "instruct solicitors to sue" if I fail to get in touch (very friendly!).

 

I'm interested in my options at this point:

 

Should I pass my case onto Trading Standards? What actually happens when the 30 days of the CCA request are up?

 

Should I send another letter to HFO to remind them I am still waiting for a copy of my credit agreement, or should I simply continue to ignore them at this point?

[42man]

Send them this letter....by recorded delivery

 

If they continue to call you, after they have received this then you must write down all the times and dates they call you. It is a reasonable request to ask for everything in writing. You can then take them to court for harrassment which is a criminal offence or let TS, the OFT and OFCOM pursue them (and with enough complaints they will do something)

 

Your Street

Town

City

Postcode

DATE HERE

Company Name

Road

Town

City / County

Postcode

 

Re: Harassment by telephone

 

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX

 

Dear Sirs

 

I am writing in relation to the quantity and frequency of telephone calls that I have received from your company, which I deem to be personally harassing.

 

I have verbally requested that these stop, but I am still receiving calls. (Delete if necessary)

 

I now require all further correspondence from your company to be made in writing only.

 

I am of the view that your continued harassment of me by telephone puts you in breach of Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

 

If you continue to harass me by telephone, you will also be in breach of the Communications Act (2003) s.127 and I will report you to, FOS, OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading, meaning that you will be liable to a substantial fine.

 

Please accept this as a formal complaint and I request your official complaints procedure within 14 days, also be advised that any further telephone calls from your company will be recorded

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

[NAME HERE]

 

[Innsmouth]

Thanks 42man, I basically sent them the exact same 'telephone harrassment' letter on July 3rd, and have kept a log of all calls since.

 

The only thing I haven't done is requested info on their complaints proceedure.

 

Consumer Direct, in their response to me essentially said they are not legally obliged to stop calling me.

 

Should my next step be to actually take this forward to FOS, OFCOM, Trading Standards and The Office of Fair Trading?

[42man]

If you have sent them the letter, bear in mind that harrassment affects different people in different ways. take a look at these...

 

Halifax's 762 calls to cancer victim in debt | This is Money

 

Debt Wizard - Alison Turner sues Halifax

[42man]

OFCOM guidelines say that they can call you up to 5 times a day between the hours of 8:00am and 8:00pm, TS say 3 times a week, and the OFT says something different, but they only use OFCOM'S guidelines (guidelines - not law) because it suits THEM, with complete disregard for the debtor. You have been quite reasonable in your actions, which they have ignored.....complain to all....you may not get anything, but as said before if enough people complain then they will do something....

[42man]

It might be worth calling Nash and Co and speaking to one of the sols who could advise you...

[Innsmouth]

OK, I received a letter from HFO yesterday with the heading NOTICE OF ADDITIONAL CHARGES AND FURTHER RECOVERY ACTION.

 

The letter suggests I have refused to cooperate, have purposely avoided contact and that the account will be tranferred to HFO Recovery, their "specialist fraud and investigation department," unless I contact them within 72 hours.

 

I am currently waiting to be contacted by Trading Standards, to whom I have passed my case but in the mean time I have drafted a letter in response to HFO.

 

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions on the following:

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

 

Re: HFO Case No: XXXXXXX

 

 

With reference to a letter I received from you today headed ‘Notice of Additional Charges and Further Recovery Action’, I wish to draw your attention to your company's lack of compliance with my legal request.

 

On July 3rd I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8.

 

 

You have failed to comply with this request, and as such the account has now entered into default.

 

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.

 

Failure to comply with this request within 12 working days renders the alleged debt UNENFORCEABLE in law. In addition, if this non-compliance continues for a further 30 days then a summary, criminal offence is committed.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a compliant credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies:

 

• Your company may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• Your company may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
  
• Your company may not pass the account to a third party.
  
• Your company may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
  
• Your company may not issue a default notice related to the account.
  

I have now referred this matter to Trading Standards.

 

I would also like to make a formal complaint to your company and hereby request that you provide me with your official complaints procedure.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

Yours Faithfully

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.