Inside a DCA!

[The GodMother]

Brink you metioned a Friday update:)

 

You do remember it's 'Good Friday' don't you:eek:

 

Aren't you going to church like wot the rest of us is doing:grin:

 

 

See told u

[la2006]

. .

[JonCris]

See told u

 

No I didn't - your makng it up:)

[andrew1]

Over the last 2 yrs there have always been people who have the attitude that people who owe money are irresponsible retrobates totally devoid of any morals regarding their finances. Ignore them and don't give them air time.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and a public forum is just that- public so their view is entirely welcome whether misguided or not. I think we all know the realities of how debt begins, how difficult it is to control and how difficult it is to get out of - if it weren't for the people coming on here and helping, listening, guiding others through the maze these institutions and dca's would still be reigning havoc with a vengence. As it is, whether they like to admit it or not they are having to change their practices big time and the industry media is full of counter proposals to the regulations and changes that have been demanded by the tens of thousands who have brought these issue out into the open. I am a proud member of CAG and the Cabot Fan Club and proud of the fact that we have led a considerable amount of people to complain and make these changes happen.

 

There will be others coming on, but remember they come because they are on their back foot and losing the battle and the freedom they had to do what they like. Hold your heads high and congratulate yourselves and treat these people with the contempt they deserve. Each and every one of you have helped change an enormous, complacent, unregulated industry so keep it up.

 

Onthebrink began a fine momentum on this thread about the dca's which is badly needed, but the whole of page 12 is draining the momentum - lets try and keep to the thread purpose and limit the banter (which is great for many low in spirit after being attacked by these dca's), but is losing the threads focus IMHO.

 

 

Sarah

[tifo]

this thread is going off topic ...

 

can we keep it to 'DCA insider info' please so we have a central place to exchange what happens inside a DCA?

 

would posters please start a new thread when asking quesions about a DCA topic as that is what the appropriate section is for?

 

thanks.

[onthebrink]

Ok... here's a scenario.

 

The OC sells an account to a DCA, who happily collects on it for several years before defaulting on a CCA request. It's then discovered that the account that was purchased contains an amalgamated balance with 2 other accounts.... BUT, no new regulated Agreement was ever issued to cover these amalgamated funds.

Such an undertaking, although rare, may be 'justified' under s18 of the CCA 1974 (multiple agreements) IF, and only IF, the creditor could justify to a court that agreements should be amalgamated in order to reduce costs for both parties (debtor/creditor) and bring about a 'fairer' settlement to the accounts. The creditor would have to show that the debts do not exceed £25k, that any new undertaking was agreed IN WRITING with the debtor, that the debtor agreed to be bound by the new repayment terms. However, such consolidation or amalgamation of accounts would require either a new agreement OR the express written consent of the debtor.

 

FOS are currently investigating this one.... as the DCA are very reluctant to put anything in writing as a "final response". Is this a common practice ?..... and am I right in thinking that the DCA is on dodgy ground here ?

Yes. They may be on dodgy ground as I bet they just amalgamated the accounts without written permission from the debtor. The DCA will have to prove they acted without knowing the debt they were enforcing was an amalgamated balance.

 

What's made you turn the tables on the DCA industry, by the way ?

It's not that I have turned the tables as such, it's just that I have advanced away from it. I started as a debt collector and finished as a Manager, having gained my accountancy qualifications and a degree along the way. A means to an end.

 

 

I hope this helps.

[PriorityOne]

Thanks OTB...

 

Not only did the OC amalgamate 3 accounts without any written authority... the stupid bergers over at the DCA (who bought it/them) went and put it in writing that they'd done it !!

 

It's all with the FOS now.... oh happy days !

[JonCris]

I suggest the following

fraus omnia corrumpit (fraud unravels all)

 

If there's no valid agreement then it follows there's no valid debt for the court to be able to enforce el al Wilson v FCP

[onthebrink]

1) A certain DCA who I have been known to frequent , having been sent a Subject Access Request send a response to alleged debtors of 'typical letter which have been sent to you' meaning template letters with no actual personal details or address just the templates which would have been mail merged and some poor soul then writes on the top of each page the dates they apparently had been sent.

 

What is your take on the legality of complying with their obligations under the Data Protection Act when they send out such tosh?

The DCA don't actually keep copies of the letters they send to you. The system will tell the account manager/debt collector, which letter template has been sent when you call them (the only exception is if a supervisor or manager writes to you directly (but see comments in a later post on 'supervisors') and then they will store a copy on their harddrive), thus when you make a SAR they just provide copies or templates of the letters and not actual letters sent.

 

2) A credit card debt sold to same DCA showed a default on the Credit report the same day as it was bought, given your previous response re defaults - what right would a DCA have to do that when no arrangements had been entered into at that point?

As long as the account had a defualt the DCA would be allowed to pursue the debt. When it is passed to a DCA and when the default is issued can be the same day. But if a DCA is contacting you prior to the default notice been issued OR, registered on you CRA, they are acting contrary to law.

This, however, only tends to happen when the DCA is an in-house DCA. The OC will put the account in 'default' and pass to the in-house DCA, which then issues a default notice. In these cases you must see the DCA not as a true 'DCA' but as nothing more than a department of the OC in all but name.

 

3) Geoffrey Parker Bourne (sols) obtained a ccj on a Cr.card debt in 2004 They were cca'd and the result was that no agreement could be found by the oc. They replied and said debt would not be pursued. Fine. Wrote asking for evidence of what they relied upon to obtain CCJ - no response. Wrote again asking for ccj to be declared unlawful if no agreement was in place - no response - any suggestions as to what should be done in your opinion?

It's no good talking to GPB, they will ignore you because they have done what they were legally requested to do (issue a CCJ), they have then 'notified' you that the debt would not be pursued. As far as they are concerned no further communication is required, unless YOU take action.

If the CCJ was not contested (defended) at the time, and you want to have the CCJ revoked now on the grounds you did not have the opportunity (because it was issued in absence at a previous address for example) to defend its issue, then you should pursue that now. However, the court will want you to justify why the CCJ was not defended in the first place. To say, and sorry for my bluntness, 'I didn't know the lawfully requirement regarding CCAs' just won't cut the mustard.

 

Thanks for your input by the way. forgive the multi questions, but easier that way and hundreds lining up behind me!

 

Sarah

 

[onthebrink]

Ok a different type of question for you.

 

I gain a CCJ against a company they fail/refuse to pay up. I want my money.

 

Can i sell this debt to a dca and ask what ever money i want for it as in the amount of money they should have paid me not a reduced amount.?

 

You can ask but you want get it

 

If you are the OC with a CCJ in you hand you powers of enforcement have increased significantly, so why sell it?

 

You would take other action, bailiffs for example. On based on the fact it is a company bankruptcy would be a serious consideration as it would force the sale of any assets to recovery your money.

 

Also, DCAs wouldn't buy it at the face value!!! Where's the profit?

[PriorityOne]

I suggest the following

 

fraus omnia corrumpit (fraud unravels all)

 

 

If there's no valid agreement then it follows there's no valid debt for the court to be able to enforce el al Wilson v FCP

 

There's no valid Agreement Jon, but the DCA took my money under false pretences (IMO) before the CCA went off... so I'm fighting to get it back. Haven't updated the thread for ages, but have been nailing their backsides to the floor for months now.

 

Whether I'll be successful in nailing it completely or not remains to be seen.... but it's been very entertaining so far.

[onthebrink]

I have a question:

 

What happens if a DCA takes you to court over an alleged debt but the claim gets thrown out of court (say for none production of the CCA) what happens to the debt??? Do they write it off or would they just sell it on in which case it could go on forever…

 

It is most likely to be sold on at a reduced rate and each DCA will try their luck. You should have a template letter ready stating what has happended to the debt previously and what they need to provide for you to further communicate.

[onthebrink]

Post 176

 

Can I just clarify what you are saying here please, as follows:-

DCA's do not receive any paperwork of "agreements" when debts are bought by themselves.

That is correct. They are provided with a electronic 'file' which contains all the information the OC knows (date agreement taken, debt outstanding, etc.)

 

When they receive the CCA request they are not bound by the CCA because they *do not know* if the agreement is actually one regulated by the CCA.

Sort of, they are only bound by the CCA 1974 if they accept it is a 'regulated' agreement. If your request calls that into doubt, they can justify a refusal to meet your CCA request and tell you to contact the OC direct. They are not saying 'we will not comply', they are saying 'we cannot comply'. They would have to suspend ALL action on the account to support such a stance.

 

Only once any paperwork is received can they stop hiding behind this little loophole.

Yes. Because not only will they know it is a regulated agreement, they will know it is enforceable. Also, the paperwork provided the debtor and DCA may not be a valid agreement with the prescribed terms, but it will confirm it's a regulated agreement.

 

Do you think the CCA request letter can be amended to cut out this fantasy?

Only if you was to admit the debt is covered under a regulated agreement!!! I don't think that would be wise though, but open to suggestions.

[onthebrink]

May I say this is an excellent thread & it's so very pleasing when an insider (former or otherwise) like onthebrink comes forward in a genuine attempt to help others.

 

Many of the insights have been most helpful in confirming what many of us already suspected & I would like to ask brink both a question whilst at the same time supplying information which might give the answer.

 

It's been my experience that some DCA's threaten or even commence proceedings in the full knowledge that they DO not even have a valid CCA & in some cases again in the full knowledge that the debt is actually time barred!

They would know both at the point of commencing CCJ procedures as the 'management check' (see post later on 'supervisors') would highlight both.

 

I suppose it's safe to assume that they are relying on the ignorance of the debtor & the most disturbing fact of all that the court will not peruse the papers as they should when issuing such proceedings (they must curse the internet)

They do rely on the ignorance and fear of debtors, yes.

Also, it should be understood that any action taken in court (except when you defend (mostly)), is administered by a court clerk that may have 100-150 CCJs to peruse that week, and each one is unlikely to get his full attention.

 

Anyway my question is this

Why & who makes the decision to spend what can be a few hundred pounds in various fees when they must know at the outset that the debt is unenforceable thereby risking having their claim struck out at the 1st hurdle & what if any is the result for the person making that decision if it fails in the manner I describe??

The final decision is made by OC legal staff, or legal representative, based on the information provided by the DCA. Any court action will be determined on the likely 'risk' factor of them winning. If they fail to gain a judgement then very little happens to 'determining officer', you win some you lose some. Unless of course, they lost because he failed to realise the defendents reason was justified. Blindly pursuing a debtor when your walking through a minefield is suicide. But thankfully they do it everyday

[onthebrink]

 

Hi ginnever,

 

Just keep that information to hand when you go to court, you don't need to provide to the 'other side'.

 

You have requested information and they have given you what they had. When you go to court present what they have failed to provide and they will be given time to provide it to you.

 

At this stage just play your cards close to your chest and go for the jugular.

[onthebrink]

Thanks for that it has been suggested elsewhere in another post that I send of this letter outlining the information that has bnot been sent - unless I have misread/understood what I should be sending.

 

If you look at my previous posting you will see that I am in court on the 31.03.08 - for a final charging order hearing....

 

You are defending the charging order on the grounds that they have failed to provide adequate evidence as required. So as said above it's to late to send the letter detailing what they have missed. Just present it in court and ensure they know you dispute the debt.

 

I know your a bit 'on edge' at the moment, but you should be OK. I hope this helps.

[onthebrink]

Hi, great thread. I may have dropped a clanger ! I wrote to DCA telling them they had still not supplied a CCA. I also told them one of the monthly statements was missing ! Should i have let it go to court before pointing this out ?

Not really, the court is not going to reject a CCJ claim because you don't have all your statements. But no valid CCA is a good reason.

 

 

Could it not be claimed that i had made a large payment to the account during missing month ?

YOU would have to prove you did to support your case, and any payment made thereafter would also have to be justified. You should NEVER lie to a court, no matter how desperate you are. It just aint worth it.

 

 

Do the statement have to be complete for a court to make a ruling ? thanks for your help .

 

They don't need all the statements to take you to court but they do need a valid CCA with the prescribed terms. Just keep pointing that out to them each time they write.

[onthebrink]

Nice to see this thread is being kept srtictly in line with its title and not being used for idle chit-chat about sweet s*d all.

 

It's good to talk.

[The GodMother]

On the brink.

 

I think that stapely ment was could the OC/DCA not claim that the large payment was made and then they failed to make further payments.

[onthebrink]

I just received a letter from Barclays that they want to close my account because i have been overdrawn by £35.00 from their charges I know i can't pay for a least another 3weeks. I want to make a complaint because its such a small amount. I've been with Barclays for 17 years. Any letters i can use. Not sure what i should write.

 

Can you give us some more info.

 

Previous claims, won/lost

Debts

etc.

[onthebrink]

Thanks OTB...

 

Not only did the OC amalgamate 3 accounts without any written authority... the stupid bergers over at the DCA (who bought it/them) went and put it in writing that they'd done it !!

 

It's all with the FOS now.... oh happy days !

 

You should win, and when you do a compensation claim is appropriate.

[onthebrink]

On the brink.

 

I think that stapely ment was could the OC/DCA not claim that the large payment was made and then they failed to make further payments.

 

But why would the OC claim that the debtor had made a large payment during the missing month? Surely stapely is putting forward the 'hyperthetical' arguement that he could claim they have failed to provide one months statement because he (the debtor) had made a large payment which they wanted to hide.

 

But if my interpretation is wrong I'm happy to look at this again.

[onthebrink]

That should keep you going for a bit.

 

Off to have a cup of tea, and the I'll post up the next chapter.

 

:grin:

[JonCris]

Hi brink following your thread avidly & think it's very,very helpful

 

However must take issue on 1 particular point & thats' the DCA's right to 'pass the buck' if they don't have copies of the CCA or account statements required to fulfil a CCA request.

 

This is wrong in law. In law any agent of the OC has a duty to comply with the CC Act & without a doubt that includes complying with statutory requests.

 

The reason that DCA's seldom have copies but don't is for the reasons your describe.

 

This has come about because the finance industry have introduced business models intended to save money & make life easier but which have little regard for their legal obligations - and why not - they have gotten away with it for years.

 

Now they only have their own avarice involving extortionate charges to blame for the reason that it's now their former foolish actions are coming home to roost.

 

Anyway my point is that any agent acting on behalf of the OC IS required to fully comply with the law & if for ANY reason they can't they like the OC will be guilty of whatever offence is proscribed by law

[ginnever]

You are defending the charging order on the grounds that they have failed to provide adequate evidence as required. So as said above it's to late to send the letter detailing what they have missed. Just present it in court and ensure they know you dispute the debt.

 

I know your a bit 'on edge' at the moment, but you should be OK. I hope this helps.

 

OMG I might have c****d up here!

Was in a bit of a flat spin yesterday, faxed & sent a copy of letter to CL FInance yesterday also the court, tried emailing court that didn't work so faxed them as well.

 

I might need a bit of help with what to take to court with me, so I will ask learly next week

 

Cheers for help.

 

I have been trying to contact Sheffield Court & no one answering telephone always busy.

Anyway Yesterday I have sent a fax to CL Finace saying that they have failed to produce the requested documents although they have provided some but not all...by any means.

 

 

 

As I have been trying to speak with some at the court without success I have sent them an email but I don't know if it is too late ...this is what I have sent ..

Good afternoon

 

Can I say first of all I have tried several times to contact Sheffield court via telephone (01142 812400) and on each occasion I have not been sucessful. The switchboard is busy... music then played ..connecting you to switchboard..can't connect you at this time.. please try later..

 

I needed to ask if I need to submit to the court a copy letter that I have sent to the claimant in respect of the above case that I would like to be considered before the final decision is made.... as I have not been able to speak with anyone.... here is the letter.

 

Should you wish to contact me then you can do so on xxxxxxxxx

 

I am now aware that I didn't respond to the County court summons but I did not & still do not believe that CL Finance are the legal owners of this account and the fact that I wrote asking from Viking Collection Services a copy of the CCA agreement on the 02.03.07 that wasn't forthcoming.

 

However, I wrote to CL Finance on the 13th January under the CPR rules asking for supporting documentation which they have failed to produce and also as well if they could procduce the documents I offered to pay the outstanding arrears at the time ie 7 X£125.00 to prevent further court actiion.

 

At the same time I telephoned Bradford Court to ask how I could arrange for a hearing nearer to home and was told to write a request to have the hearing in Sheffield which is scheduled for the 31st March, 2008.

 

I feel that as they cannot produce the requested documents I feel that I charging order on my property is too harsh.

 

I am not sure that I am following the correct procedure in notifying the court but if you can attached this to my file I will be grateful.

 

xxxxxx

 

 

 

19th March, 2008

 

C L Finance Ltd

PO Box 166

Cleckheaton

West Yorkshire

BD19 4WN

FAX 0870 751 3123

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Sheffield County Court Case No. 7xxxxxxxxx

 

Claimant CLFinance - Defendant Mrs. xxxxx

 

GE Money/ Debenhams Chargecard 6000xxxxxx

 

DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER – LITIGATION ADVICE

 

I refer to my recent request for information under the Civil Procedure Rules which has not been fully satisfied. In my letter I requested that you send to me the following documents.

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

 

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. A transcript of all transactions, including charges, fees, interest, repayments and payments and both the original amount of the loan and any repayments made to it the account.

 

b. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor.

 

c. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with GE Money

 

 

 

d. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

e. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

f. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

 

g. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

h. A genuine copy of any deed of assignment, or proof that you have a legal right to this money.

 

i. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

 

j. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

3. Any other documents you will seek to rely upon in court.

 

 

4. A copy of your complaints procedure, as required by the Consumer Credit Act 2006.

 

5. Clarification of the date you acquired the debt, what organisation you acquired it from, their registered office, their company number (if any) and what legal title they had to this debt, and what credit license number they had at the time that the debt was purchased or entered into.

 

Furthermore, if you can satisfy me that you are the lawful owner of the debt; that the amount stated is correct and you can supply the original credit agreement, please be advised that I am in the position of being able to pay the outstanding amount of the Judgement [ie 7 months x £125].This should prevent the case from going to Court.

 

You have sent some of the documents which I don’t believe to be true & original and you also failed to respond to my last paragraph that if you are the lawful owner of the debt and you can supply original supporting documents that I could pay the outstanding amount of the judgement ie 7 X£125 which should prevent the case from going to court.

 

As I feel that you have failed to provide adequate information I will notify the court