Discussion about "A short warning thread"

[renegotiation]

For a TV ad I couldn't help myself. I pledge £50. Come on people make this happen. Someone with authority would obviously have to take this forward though. If no, then may I politely ask why? I won't be grumbling, but very disappointed.

[djdave]

TV advertising is disproportionately expensive and scattergun by nature. Brilliant for building brands, crap at getting specific messages over.

 

We should be trying instead to get these horror stories into the press and on the news. Local paper and radio journos are usually grateful when a story lands on their desk, and there's no cost involved to the CAG.

 

I'd strongly suggest that everybody reading this contact their local newspaper and/or radio station with a view to getting their story out into the world with as many mentions of this fine site as possible.

[patrickq1]

what would it cost fpr 5,000,000 leaflets distributed by the sun and news of the world CAGS own CHARTEr/PETITION AND A SUPPORT AND SIGNATURE BOX TO ACCOMPANY IT ?just a thought

[sosumi]

what would it cost fpr 5,000,000 leaflets distributed by the sun and news of the world CAGS own CHARTEr/PETITION AND A SUPPORT AND SIGNATURE BOX TO ACCOMPANY IT ?just a thought

I think that's a briliant idea Patrickq1 - love it! xx

Please can someone let us know how much it would cost?

[PriorityOne]

MoonHawk... I have read you posts and you have some lovely ideals. Unfortunately, people who try and impliment those kind of ideals do not fare very well in the modern (or even not-so-modern) world. Jesus died on the cross.... and Ghandi was shot.

[MoonHawk]

MoonHawk... I have read you posts and you have some lovely ideals. Unfortunately, people who try and impliment those kind of ideals do not fare very well in the modern (or even not-so-modern) world. Jesus died on the cross.... and Ghandi was shot.

Thank you.

 

The world may be harsh, but truth is truth. The way we live is not according to our essense and as a result we are suffering. I am not saying not to do what is necessary in our lives, I am saying the energy with which we carry out each an every action, whether it be making a cup of tea or writing a letter to a bank, makes the difference.

 

Living in separateness (from your heart/essence) will cause dis-ease in your body. Also any actions that cause separateness in another has consequences and will require balancing in this or another lifetime (Karma). All we are doing is putting off what has to be happen eventually anyway and making it harder for ourselves. We all will eventually have to reconnect to our essence and feel our own divinity.

 

“The kingdom of God is within you.” - Jesus

 

Death is transient but the energetic imprint you leave in this life has consequence for you in what follows. I am certain by all accounts, that Jesus and Ghandi would not receommend you to look at their deaths, but to look at their lives and how they lived.

 

With Love and Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[sosumi]

Moonhawk, you write beautifully.

However, I believe DCAs are using a process of attrition to break people down. They are doing this systematically and, it seems, deliberately.

However much I applaud your sentiments - the reality is far more difficult.

The DCAs themselves are causing dis-ease. They are creating separateness. The more alone and vulnerable a person is, the more DCAs use their underhand tactics.

This problem is with this life, now, and has to be addressed by everyone. I shudder to think how many people are coping alone with harassment and intimidation from DCAs. And the truly shocking reality is that they love to catch the unguarded, the polite, the honest... and torment them, sometimes to death.

We all have individual responsibilities I agree, but we also have collective responsibilities, to protect (where we can) the most vulnerable of our neighbours - in the widest sense.

Some people lack the energy to make a cup of tea, let alone write a letter to a bank. Some people cannot afford the milk for a cup of tea, or are too afraid to leave their homes to buy it. What you say would - at this time - be lost to them, because they live in fear and despair.

 

In one of your posts, you say that change needs to come from the top, and I agree. Lasting change certainly. An individual may not be heartless, but if the system the operate under is heartless, they will suspend their own morality.

That's why the response must be collective.

[renegotiation]

what would it cost fpr 5,000,000 leaflets distributed by the sun and news of the world CAGS own CHARTEr/PETITION AND A SUPPORT AND SIGNATURE BOX TO ACCOMPANY IT ?just a thought

 

Love the idea!

[ian1969uk]

Moonhawk, you write beautifully.

However, I believe DCAs are using a process of attrition to break people down. They are doing this systematically and, it seems, deliberately.

However much I applaud your sentiments - the reality is far more difficult.

The DCAs themselves are causing dis-ease. They are creating separateness. The more alone and vulnerable a person is, the more DCAs use their underhand tactics.

This problem is with this life, now, and has to be addressed by everyone. I shudder to think how many people are coping alone with harassment and intimidation from DCAs. And the truly shocking reality is that they love to catch the unguarded, the polite, the honest... and torment them, sometimes to death.

We all have individual responsibilities I agree, but we also have collective responsibilities, to protect (where we can) the most vulnerable of our neighbours - in the widest sense.

Some people lack the energy to make a cup of tea, let alone write a letter to a bank. Some people cannot afford the milk for a cup of tea, or are too afraid to leave their homes to buy it. What you say would - at this time - be lost to them, because they live in fear and despair.

 

In one of your posts, you say that change needs to come from the top, and I agree. Lasting change certainly. An individual may not be heartless, but if the system the operate under is heartless, they will suspend their own morality.

That's why the response must be collective.

 

You don't write so badly yourself!

[PriorityOne]

Hi again Moonhawk,

 

Leading a truly spiritual life is perhaps the hardest task to accomplish, especially in the world we live in. I take your point that Jesus and Ghandi would recommend that people look at their lives and not at their deaths... and people do.... but the outcome for both of these examples reflects the world that we live in... and have lived in for many years.

 

Unfortunately, the truly spiritual are not really tolerated here. It's a greedy, selfish world where survival depends on how hard a person is able to fight back against injustice, etc. at any one of several points in their lives. Money (and celebrity ) has become the modern God, so to speak. People now worship at the temple of money... respecting those who have it, often for no other reason. You only have to look at the criminal justice system to see that crimes involving money normally attract far higher punishments than those that cause personal injury and loss.

 

Banks are owned and controlled by those with power, influence and money. These same individuals manage to work the law in their favour.... ignoring legal deadlines for the supply of information, harrassing individuals for alleged debts, effectively stealing from their accounts by applying unlawful charges and so on.... and then criminalising individuals, often by ignoring circumstances that leave them unable to repay the amount that they're after. Then, just to mess up their lives that bit more, defaults are applied, County Court Judgements are sought, often followed by property charges.... in order to pile on the pressure and make those people crumble.

 

On CAG, we have developed a collective strength, if you like. The internet has given us the ability to exchange horror stories, gain advice and support and challenge certain organisations that probably never thought that they would ever need to be accountable for their procedures and/or behaviour.

 

I admire your views.... but unfortuately, they will continue to have no effect on a world that historically, has always valued money over and above human life and suffering.

[maybelline]

well said - priorityone!

[mcnab]

Modern society exists on keeping to the letter of the law not cutting corners.

 

Thus multinationals escape paying taxes at a "moral" level by using the law to their benefit.

 

Personally I think charging huge hidden fees for credit and crucifying those that default through unforseen circumstances is majorly imoral.

 

The internet will change the world, because it bypasses all the lies, all the politics and all the profiteering.

 

"Not guilty of owing money until proved otherwise" is that any worse than some banker avoiding taxes through some legal until proved otherwise [problem]?

[renegotiation]

Maybe this morality discussion needs to be dethreaded from this thread. That may be my fault for going off on one. The original message should dictate the thread really. Sorry Tom.

 

Maybe call the thread 'DCA's, Nasty Or Nice? Discuss' :-0

[MoonHawk]

Thank you Sosumi,

 

It is not easy. Reconnecting to your heart after so many years of being disconnected is hard and will at first seem unnatural, especially in our society. But it is a matter of choice. A starving man needs to eat first, but there are those of us who are in a position to be different and choose not to be, whatever our excuses are.

 

Separateness is not caused directly by anything external to us. It comes about from the choices we make to live not from our essence. You can blame the Banks, DCAs, Government etc for everything. But all of those are comprised of individuals who (not all but most of) live not true to their heart, and that goes for our society as a whole. Trying to change them with the same quality of energy they are operating out of, will not bring about true change. It may change the structure, but things will still be the same in nature. Just look at history.

 

Taking action is necessary at certain times in our lives, and action against the DCAs is one of those in my view. What will make true difference, however, is whether you use love or hate. Have we all forgotten that even those working for banks and DCAs are like us, but have forgotten who they are and live separately from their heart? There is no need for us to do the same. Take actions necessary to stop them and help the vulnerable. But remember who you are. You were born an innocent, loving and soulful being. Over time there has been a disconnection to that. When you are reminded of that, there is a choice.

 

I may have unintentionally said that change needs to come from the top, but that is not what I have meant. True change comes from only one place. From within. Every teacher that has ever walked this earth has said to us go within. We have taken those teachings and made beliefs and organised rituals that are complete opposite to that.

 

PriorityOne, the reason the world at this time is greedy and selfish with everyone clamouring to get more money or be famous or live through the life of another (celebrity) is because people feel empty inside. Instead of going within to connect to themselves and fill themselves with their own fiery self, they look for something from outside to fill that void or at least numb and distract them long enough from the pain of that emptiness. Drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, video games, reality TV and the celebrity obsession are all an indication of that fact.

 

I am not asking you to change society. I am asking you to, out of love for yourself, to no longer live neglecting your heart and to live fully with your heart as the source of your actions. A collective's energy is the sum of the energy of those that it comprises of. If we all act in the same separate, mindful and disconnected energy that has been used for thousands of years we will change nothing. Nada. Zip. Naught. We will create another structure with the same ills within. That is why history shows you what you see.

 

I will make this my last post on this as it is taking the thread away from it's intended point. If anyone is further interested then please PM me and I will happily chat with you.

 

With Love

MoonHawk

[PriorityOne]

Hi again MoonHawk,

I have noted your coments about this being your last post, so this will also be mine on this thread.

 

PriorityOne, the reason the world at this time is greedy and selfish with everyone clamouring to get more money or be famous or live through the life of another (celebrity) is because people feel empty inside. Apologies for any offence Moonhawk, but that is only a small part of a much bigger picture. Have you considered why we are fed a constant diet of celebrity in the media ? It's directed at those who "feel empty inside" as you say, but it also serves to give impressionable people an image to aspire to.... a wannabe lifestyle, adored by thousands, looking perfect; successful. This is how modern society measures success; not in any other way and note how it's aimed at certain sectors/classes in particular. So it doesn't matter how "full" a person feels inside.... these images are re-enforced every day. Open a paper and you will find a story that mentions a person, together with the size of the property they own... and then continue to report on that story. Sometimes, the influence is so subtle that people don't even have to go and look for it. In fact, it's become more and more difficult to get away from it. Instead of going within to connect to themselves and fill themselves with their own fiery self, they look for something from outside to fill that void or at least numb and distract them long enough from the pain of that emptiness. Drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, video games, reality TV and the celebrity obsession are all an indication of that fact. People turn to a variety of props in order to get them through life at times. We no longer support one another in the ways of days gone by.... and tend to judge those who are unable to cope with life issues. The whole debt collection industry is a prime example of this and people find themselves criminalised for owing money.... when owing money is not in itself a criminal offence. When a person has reached that level of despair, no amount of "going within" is going to make the blindest bit of difference. In fact, they are more likely to hurl themselves off the nearest cliff.

 

I am not asking you to change society. I am asking you to, out of love for yourself, to no longer live neglecting your heart and to live fully with your heart as the source of your actions. This comes across as quite patronising, but I know you probably don't mean it, so will let you off. I have lived by my heart for a long time, MoonHawk.... but that doesn't alter the fact that I, along with the vast majority of people have basic needs in life, such as a stable home, a need for emotional security and so on. Therefore, we all have a need for money in order to fulfil those needs... and this is what's preyed upon. When a DCA comes along and threatens a person's basic security, then individuals have a duty to themseslves and their families to try and protect those interests and I will continue to do so. A collective's energy is the sum of the energy of those that it comprises of. If we all act in the same separate, mindful and disconnected energy that has been used for thousands of years we will change nothing. Nada. Zip. Naught. Well, in this case, I'm not prepared to stress myself out by worrying about it.... but will continue to protect my own interests as described above and help people on here to protect theirs. So that will have to suffice as part of the collective contribution you talk about. We will create another structure with the same ills within. That is why history shows you what you see.

 

I will make this my last post on this as it is taking the thread away from it's intended point. If anyone is further interested then please PM me and I will happily chat with you.

 

With Love

MoonHawk

 

[sosumi]

Priority One - this and your other posts are truly excellent

Moonhawk - I agree with you and P1, that this thread has strayed, and there are differences of opinion. Your writing is graceful, and lovely to read - and what you say captures the heart. This is why no-one disagrees with the essence of what you are saying.

However, this is the Consumer Action Group, which aims to defend the rights of the consumer, so I absolutely agree with P1 in pretty much every respect.

So, I'll also finish my part of this fascinating - and well-intentioned - debate, by referring back to Patrickq1's suggestion, which I think is brilliant :

 

"patrickq1: what would it cost fpr 5,000,000 leaflets distributed by the sun and news of the world CAGS own CHARTEr/PETITION AND A SUPPORT AND SIGNATURE BOX TO ACCOMPANY IT ?just a thought"

[maybelline]

thanks, but it has strayed quite a lot, it may be well intentioned but it is not the place for what appears to be a form of preaching? dont get me wrong, people are not bad but behaviours can be and their is a lot of bad behaviour by industry, govt and so on but lets stick to the consumer forum issues, morality is a BIG debate, no one can force theirs on others, as you say, success, its all relative, finding food today or getting up to go to the shop could be success for that person that day, so........ what I want to know - is my agreement enforceable!!!??? can I sue and if so how!?????

 

etc etc

[sosumi]

I think we're all being watched, because DCAs are becoming increasingly nervous about the CAG. I think they'd love us all to become divided about 'morality', because it might hide the very real issues about their tactics and behaviour. Seems to me that good people here have found a legal way to challenge them. I think they're worried - and so they should be. Most of us can't afford to sue them. But we can run to the cost of a £1 CCA request and maybe even push the budget to an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request). And if, as Patrickq1 and others suggest, we could get the funds together for some sort of publicity campaign...

[maybelline]

Court Fees - do you have to pay them?

 

this might help some:)

[Belaflat]

I think we're all being watched,

 

I think you are quite correct and the thread where someone had an offer withdrawn because they posted on here highlights that fact.

It also can be taken as a form of intimidation by the DCA's whereby membership and participation on this forum will be used against you if you can be pinpointed and identified.

 

The DCAs are unscrupulous, immoral and to some extent stretch the boundaries of legality to breaking point so I have no qualms whatsoever in employing the same mindset in my approach towards them.

 

A downside to all this is I am now more dubious about posting exact details of my problems in case of identification and have resorted more to PMs where possible. This means that the answers are not available for others to see and also help which may have been forthcoming in an open forum is now denied because of the secrecy.

 

This unfortunately means that the DCAs may have the upper hand once again unless we are careful to the Nth degree in removing any identifying features of our cases such as dates, amounts etc.

[Dibsthefrenchie]

I found this site by accident after a particularly nasty phone call from a DCA, maybe I should thank them. People need to be aware of CAG as it gives you the tools, the confidence and the support needed to defend yourself.

I am also willing to pledge £20 towards the cost of a TV advert or leaflets, and more than willing to help distribute leaflets.

[vandermerwe]

I agree Belaflat.

 

I have no argument with the philosophical arguments on this thread, but it's the Law of the Jungle out there or, to use the old saying "When you're up to your a*** in alligators you forget the objective was the drain the swamp.

 

Vandermerwe

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

 

To clarify, I did not say that you should accept a statutory demand on grounds of morality, my standard advice is to apply for it to be set aside.

 

I merely say that advising someone to ignore a statutory demand is immoral, and my reasoning - that if it came to a bankruptcy hearing, they would have to commit a very serious criminal offence (perjury) to have the statutory demand set aside.

 

I am one of the posters who did and would still advocate ignoring "statutory demands" mass mailed by second class post. The Insolvency Rules clearly state that these must be served in person by a process server whose sworn affidavit is bundled with the bankruptcy petition. Second class post is not effective service. If it came to court (it wouldn't) - you tell the truth and just say that because of the manner you received it (junk mail format) you didn't see it as anything other than empty intimidation and you didn't want to waste time having it set aside.

[andrew0101]

I have large debts which have been due to a business that went terribly wrong and a business partner who acted in a less than honest manner. Okay that is not relevant to this, however, over the past 18 months I ran up huge credit card debts (approx 50k) to try and save my business. In the previous 5 years to that I paid each and every credit card on time and in some cases cleared massive balances ( sometimes as much as 15k ) in one lump more than once.

When things went wrong the attitude of the card providers changed overnight and from falling over backwards to help they took a completely different stance and although I tried to explain my position they answered that by letters and constant telephone calls. There was not any human intervention only automatic dialling systems and computers and ''robot'' telephone operators who asked for money and heard nothing else.

My attitude to day is use the law to protect myself as they would use some peoples naievety to scare them into paying and in some cases drive people into more debt and bad health. I expect a lot of people have read about cases of debt leading to suicide and I am sure the banks dont care. It is time to stand up to them and treat them to a taste of their own medicine

[clairesolo]

ok well my fiance has the defaults and ccj from 4 yrs ago, all paid, but because theyre still on his file are chances of getting a house, passing credit checks for renting a house or anything are zero, i have a perfect credit file but im suffering too and its caused me a lot of misery. im not for debt avoidence, as i said, theyre paid for! but we're both suffering, or is that me being "Greedy"?