ECP ANPR PCN - overstay - WaitRose Bowen Square - Daventry, Bowen Square, Daventry, Northamptonshire, NN11 4DR

[SportingModel]

Date of the infringement 16/05/23 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 23/05/23 
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide] please LEAVE IN LOCATION AND ALL DATES/TIMES/£'s

 

3 Date received Not Sure because I was working way until mid July and then away on holiday. i only opened the letter at beginning August.
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Y
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? No

...................

Hi Sorry, I'm new on this site, so hopefully I've formatted this case correctly

I'm in a bit of a pickle because I've received a couple of these PCNs for overstaying in Supermarket Carparks while I was doing legitimate shops. They were long stays (over 2 hours) because I tended to spend some of the time in the car resting, having been travelling for a couple of hours on the motorway for work ( I prefer to use supermarket services rather than motorway ones as they are cheaper).

On this occasion it was a Waitrose supermarket in the Midlands, usually if there is a café and toilet I will head there or if not and I'm not needing to go I will stay in my car for a while resting my eyes from driving. But I always use the supermarket ,on this occasion spending nearly £90 on groceries. 

This particular incident with Waitrose happened in mid-may when I was in full contract and my job required me to drive anywhere in the UK at their request Mon-Friday. My work contract didn't end until mid-July during which time I've hardly been home, weekends usually consisting of washing sleeping, eating then off again on a Sunday. As a result, I only properly opened my mail when I came back from a holiday last week, much to my surprise I had all these parking Charge Notices for what I thought, was legitimate supermarket parking.  

The initial letter with NTK as I've uploaded below was dated 23/05/23 and as you can see on the back Europarks have mentioned POFA 2012.

The Final Notification letter was amongst my pile of mail, that was dated 22/06/2023 asking me to cough-up £100 within 28 days. The third and last correspondence from them was dated 25/07/23 and is from DR+ giving me an option to pay by 08/08/23 or they will have to 

• Inform their legal team
• Share contact evidence
• Advise legal action starts with 'Intent not to pay' added to case

What a bloomin' cheek!

 

2023-05-23 ECP NTK incident 16-5-23.pdf

[dx100uk]

nothing tp panic about 

100's of threads to read here.

bottom line is just ignore everything until/unless you ever get a letter of claim with a reply pack wanting I&E etc.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

It's a bit difficult to understand what the fleecers think you did wrong as you've chopped bits of their invoice off when uploading.  However, am I right in thinking

- this is a free car park?

- the maximum stay is two hours?

- you stayed for two hours and 13 minutes?

[FTMDave]

I think I've got to the bottom of it.

Is it this place?

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2566228,-1.1612616,3a,45.3y,313.59h,89.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4YKRaOv6kv16extOa4KkcA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

[lookinforinfo]

If that is the one then the entrance sign says two free hours parking. Inside the car park appears to be only one other sign which is close to the exit and facing away from motorists driving in. That sign explains that if you want to stay for more than two hours you have to pay . Of course those pictures were taken back in 2018 so more signs may have been added since.

Regardless, the PCN does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 [Gog how many times have I said that in the past two weeks?]

The first thing wrong is that they have not invited the  keeper to pay the charge. Schedule 4 Section 9 [2][e] 

state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges

The second thing is that Section 9[2][a] 

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

It doesn't even mention it let alone specify it. All they have done is give the arrival and departure times  which as that involves driving from the entrance to the parking spot and later driving from the parking place to the exit can hardly be described as parking.

That means that they cannot pursue the keeper as they have failed to comply with the Act. Only the driver is now liable and as you have not appealed they do not know who was driving.As hundreds of motorists with valid motor insurance policies are able to drive your car and the Courts do not accept that the driver and the keeper are the same person they will have their work cut out to win against you.

 

One more thing.  There is a ten minute grace period allowed  at the end of a parking session. There is also a five minute consideration period at the beginning of the parking period to allow motorists time to read the T&Cs and decide if they want to stay..

Any reasonable honest company would include that five minutes in the parking period-but not the British Parking Association to which Europarks belongs. However it would not be a stretch to imagine that driving from the entrance to a car parking space ;being careful to park within the lines  and later unloading your trolley and then returning the trolley to Waitrose and heading towards the exit could easily take three minutes without taking pedestrians crossing in front of you or other cars manoeuvring into their spaces in front of you into consideration.

[FTMDave]

Exactly LFI.

Let's wait for the OP to confirm the details of the car park.

[SportingModel]

@FTMDaveOoh I don't know how that happened? 
Yes to all 3 Questions

Yes , That's the one!

@LookingForInfo Wow! yes, I didn't think of that!
 

[FTMDave]

I couldn't initially work out why, on the fleecers' invoice, they talk about payment - in a free car park.

However, you can see on Google Maps that the first two hours are free, then you have to pay.

LFI has beaten me to it with his explanation of consideration & grace periods - so you don't owe a bean.

Don't expect the fleecers to follow the law though, be prepared for massive deforestation while, over the coming months, they send various threats - I hope you are OK with this.

Edited August 10, 2023 by FTMDave
Typo

[SportingModel]

@LookingForInfo You're right.

They have not invited the Keeper to pay the charge 9 (e)(i) , they have also not stated that they do not know who both the names of the driver nor the current address for service for the driver nor asked me to pass the notice on to the driver....9(e)(ii)

[SportingModel]

@FTMDave I've been through this before, from 2019 , I just ignored them, and through Covid seemed to go quiet, then  started up a new tactic last year, where I received 4 bullying letters, in the March, then the April then the June, with "Notice of Legal Action', then the last one was January of this year from a dcblegal, headed "Solicitors Reminder letter". Nothing since then.

[dx100uk]

just type no need to keep hitting quote......

dx

 

[SportingModel]

Ok Thanks I've just found the reply box

[FTMDave]

Glad you know the drill!

This Waitrose site is just for one ticket, right?

You mention other invoices.  If you start new threads we will be happy to help.

[SportingModel]

Yes, there is another one I collected, from Morrisons about a month later, same format, from euro car parks.

This time I was 20 minutes over. 

Shall I start another thread and try not to remove vital parts in converting the redacted copies of the letter from JPEGs to PDF?

 

[lookinforinfo]

Yes ECP do not seem to understand the details of PoFA.

Schedule 4 section 54 [1]and [2]Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle of the vehicle

4(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

(2)The right under this paragraph applies only if—

(a)the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met; 

Section 6 states-

6(1)The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)—

(b)has given a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 9.

As their NTK is not in accordance with paragraph 9 they cannot pursue the keeper. Yet they blithely continue as if there is nothing wrong with their PCN  and trying to pursue you when they have breached the Act themselves. From where I am it doesn't look as if you have breached their T&Cs at all.

If you have retained proof of your shopping on that day an email to Waitrose CEO 

[email protected]  explaining your situation [without mentioning the sleeping bit] you may well get it cancelled.

 

 

[FTMDave]

@lookinforinfo  I was thinking the same, but from Google it seems to not be a Waitrose car park but instead a shopping centre.

@SportingModel Yes, please start a second thread for the other invoice.

[SportingModel]

Thanks for this
Yes, I've got the card transaction on my bank statement.

Shall I use the above quote from PoFA and where they've breached when writing the CEO?

[lookinforinfo]

@SportingModel I am sorry not to have acknowledged the fact that you looked up PoFA and found another slip up. I often wonder if people do reference PoFA when they have had something from quoted to them, so well done.

[SportingModel]

I've got a highlighted copy of Section 9 on my desk.

So what you were saying is that Euro car parks MUST STATE in the NTK that they do not know the name or current address of the driver in order to comply with Sec 9 (2),  as well as State its invitation to the keeper to pay the charges or let the creditor know the name and details of actual driver ..... (Sec 9 (2) (e) (ii) ?