PayPal has refunded eBay purchase but seller wants item back and now issued court action

[molly316]

Q. if I simply return the item by recorded delivery do I have to pay the court fees & interest claimed or is that all I have to do? I have trawled looking for the answer and apologies I couldn't find one.

PayPal refunded me as seller failed to respond.

The process up to that point is complicated but for simplicity I wanted to return it as it's no good to me as it looks part worn and not new.

PayPal told me to keep or dispose of the item.

 

Seller got my number (?) and called at night ranting and shouting about it's return, lies, police theft and fraud and that he wasn't able to respond in time as he was closed for the holidays.

 

I told him repeatedly all we wanted was to return it for a refund but had to say that if he kept ranting I would have to hang up and did so.

Distressed I called eBay and they said I didn't have to return it, that I should report his behaviour as he was in violation of eBay policy and to action fraud etc

 

PayPal said the case was closed so nfa and re sent me a copy of their decision.

 

As we were going on holiday very shortly after I had a million things to do and assured by eBay and PayPal left the country so I have proof we were not home. 

 

Came back to find a letter threatening action with only 7 days to respond and the money claim notification waiting for me. 

I have acknowledged the claim and asked for more time.
 

I can simply return this if that's the end of it but to prove it didn't match it's Description and challenge the money claim 

I'd need to take it to be assessed and get a report and submit that as part of my defence.
 

Many thanks 
 

[dx100uk]

have you it in writing or by an account message that ebay/paypal told you NOT to return it?

 

dx

 

[stu007]

I would also Report the Seller to ebay again about them issuing this claim as you took ebay advice that you didn't need to return tis item to the Seller and you need this confirmed by them.

 

How much was the item for?

 

ebay link to Report Seller:

Report an issue with a seller

WWW.EBAY.CO.UK

---

To make sure eBay is a safe place to buy and sell, we have policies that members have to follow. If you're having a problem with a seller because...

 

[molly316]

hi dx no it was all done on the phone

 

both PayPal and eBay told me I didn't have to return it although I said I wanted to as it's useless. I asked PayPal for a copy of their decision making process but they said they couldn't send me any more than a copy of the email stating I was refunded which has no mention of returning it.

Hi Stu and thanks I'll get back onto them. It's £53 plus court fees of £35 plus interest!

Edited October 12, 2022 by molly316

[stu007]

Never ever do anything like this by phone unless you can record the call as that is why the Seller phoned you as they knew full well that if they went via ebay to contact you it would all be logged on ebays systems what they said so why they didn't and phoned you instead.

 

Use the link in my post above and go down to Report Seller and mention your phone call with ebay on XX/XX/2022 and you need clarification you didn't need to return item and also the actions of the seller with this claim issued.

 

 

[BankFodder]

I think it's very likely that neither eBay nor PayPal have the authority to tell you to keep the item.

If the seller is out of pocket then they are probably entitled to recover the goods.

Are they a private seller? Are they a commercial seller? If they are commercial seller then I would certainly want to send them a subject access request in an attempt to discover how they found your number.

Although it may rankle, you may find that you will eventually be obliged to pay them and also to forfeit the costs

[molly316]

thanks for all the replies 

 

They are a business seller on ebay and their associated website also says they are a family run business.

 

They have sold lots of these items. It's possible the ebay or paypal note had my phone number on?

 

I'll send a SAR anyway as ebay told me they wouldnt give out my number.

 

Q. I have no problem with returning it but is it past that stage now?

 

atm I have 2 options,

 

accept the claim for the full amount and I assume pay in full inc his costs,

 

can I return the item by recorded services and respond rejecting the claim as I have returned it already - that leaves an unpaid court fee?

the chargeback was accepted because I claimed it's not new -  it looks new externally but the motor inside shows signs of wear and looks no better than the 40 year old one we wanted to replace.

 

Inside it shows clear signs of use and is more likely to be reconditioned but to defend this I'm guessing I'd have to get a report from an expert to prove it's not as described.

 

From reading previous attempts to defend such cases saying Paypal/ ebay told me to keep the goods -

 

even if I get them to confirm this in writing may not work as do their policies over ride his right to the goods under british law? 

 

The seller was so agressive and threatening on the phone

 

it was late at night and as I was assured by paypal and ebay everything was ok,

 

we were about to go on holiday and were away when the letters arrived,

 

its all just turned into a sticky mess that should never have gone this far.

 

I just wanted to return it - if he considered it new then he could re sell it?

 

As i considered it worn I couldnt re sell it as new. 

 

Q.  if I respond by saying I accept the claim do I just get a bill for the whole lot and write it off as unfortunate that the letters arrived when we were away? No recorded CCJ?

Thanks

[dx100uk]

Once judgement is issued if you pay within 28 days no ccj is recorded nor exists  .

 

Dx

 

 

 

 

[just_jue]

BF on eBay if you are a business seller you can tick a box so buyers can only buy from you that have a telephone number on file, it's mainly for when booking couriers as they normally require a number.

 

When you have a return as a seller you get the options to either accept the return and pay for postage, offer a discount or refund the buyer and they get to keep item. As the seller didn't respond in time ebay stepped in and refunded the buyer and would get to keep the item. 

 

On their money back guarantee it states:

 

Deciding the outcome when the item doesn't match the listing

When a buyer reports that an item doesn't match the listing and the transaction meets our eligibility requirements, we will look for all of the following:

Evidence that the buyer and seller have each met their return requirements

Whether the seller breached eBay policies when listing the item

Whether the item can be posted back to the seller

Proof of return delivery, if the item was being returned

If we determine that the seller did not meet their return requirements:

The buyer will receive a refund for the full cost of the item and original postage, and

The seller will be required to reimburse eBay for the amount of the refund, and

The buyer may not be required to return the item

 

Hope that makes sense.

The seller I don't think has a case as he could of replied to the return but didn't

[molly316]

PayPal closed the case as he didn't reply -he said he was on holiday.

 

Contacted PayPal again today - confirmed via message centre in writing that they did not ask me to return the item at the time. I have requested transcripts of all previous messages.

 

Sad that we then went away on holiday and didn't respond to his actions which he escalated to small claims court as we didn't reply due to holidays. 

 

do I

1. accept costs and pay up and write it off and bin the item

2. defend that PayPal decided in my favour, I double checked with them and just did what I was told but risk a judge getting annoyed with me that British law over rules PayPal policy and more costs.

 

Did I act reasonably?

was I supposed to know PayPal's policies might not stand up in court?

Was I reasonable when called with threats of all sorts at night asking him to stop yelling or I'd hang up after almost 10 minutes?

Was I unreasonable to feel that getting ready for my holiday was more important than dealing with an angry man arguing about something that was already decided on

 

who never once simply calmly asked us to return it or offered a return address or acknowledged that all we wanted to do was return it for a refund as it wasn't as described and didn't want to waste the money or put it in the bin.

 

Now we owe more money and still have to bin it.

 

We certainly never wanted to keep it yet he's determined we acted with intent to at best defraud and at worst steal.

 

Like everyone money is tight and it seemed reasonable to ask PayPal to persuade the seller to let us return it for a refund i didn't expect PayPal to say don't return it.

 

In fairness I also accept that the seller can say he acted reasonably by calling then sending a letter and then small claims court action as he wasn't aware we were on holiday and couldn't respond. 

[just_jue]

I might be wrong but a Paypal claim is opened for upto 30 days which is plenty of time for the seller to reply.

They agreed to eBays and Paypal's T&C when they signed up and didn't respond in time so I feel it's down to the seller to complain to Ebay - Paypal.

 

Do you still have the item?

[molly316]

 yes still have the item which is where I started this thread -what if I just send it back

 

On 12/10/2022 at 01:41, dx100uk said:

have you it in writing or by an account message that ebay/paypal told you NOT to return it?

 

dx

 

paypal have now said in an account message that they didnt ask me to return it

[BazzaS]

Return it (taking video of you boxing it up / sending it)

Then point out to the seller their issuing court papers was precipitous, (and why)

 

point out to them that you will let the court decide on the remaining aspects of the case (the issue fee, and the costs [which are limited in the small claims track).

 

Even if PayPal / eBay said you can keep both, the law might deem this unfair enrichment. Send it back, remind the seller of the above (including eBay’s comments), and leave them to decide if they wish to pursue a claim that leaves them looking unreasonable.

[dx100uk]

yes return it ask the claimant to discontinue the claim.

 

dx

[The GodMother]

I dont now about PayPal claims but l do know about ebay claims. I have had to use them a few times over my 12 years as a buyer. 

@just_jue on post #9 is correct on some of the stuff said.

 

Some sellers have said all returns have to be approved by them other just leave it to the ebay system.

 

This meaning that automatically ebay issues returns label that sellers only pay for once the item is used. 

 

According to a recent agent conversation with ebay, via telephone as l had another unrelated to this issue,

 

as my item was not as described, and l asked for a return due to this a label was automatically issued.

 

The seller could choose once label issued if it was feesable for them to accept the return.

 

The label would cost the seller £3 with the item being £1.99 the seller opted to refund me and l did not have to return the item. 

 

I did cover my backside by messaging the seller asking if they want the item back. The still have not replied its been about a month. 

 

How has the seller got your phone number. ?

 

A few years ago l had a seller request my contact details which they got from ebay.

 

The seller then proceeded to text and call me several times a day. they got a visit from the police but it was not before l complained to ebay.

 

According to ebay it was perfectly legal for the seller to obtain my details as it was in the terms and conditions. 

 

@just_jueis also right on the seller obtaining the phone number for courier contact.

 

I recently brought some sets of drawers and wardrobes off ebay, it was cheaper than using the company directly,

 

A message in red capital lettering came up when l put the items in my basket saying WARNING *THE SELLER* WILL REQUIRE YOUR PHONE NUMBER TO ARRANGE DELIVERY OF THIS ITEM IF YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS TRANSACTION. 

 

when l went to pay l got this message is Red capital letters.

 

WARNING *THE SELLER* WILL BE GIVEN YOUR PHONE NUMBER TO ARRANGE DELIVERY WITH THE COURIER IF YOU BUY THIS ITEM

 

True to the statement the seller contacted me regarding delivery and so did the courier. l have used *The Seller* instead of company name.

[molly316]

Many thanks for the replies (and for the neat editing).

 

PayPal gave the seller time to respond which he didn't he says due to holidays.

 

We were caught in the same boat as we were then on holiday when he switched to postal communication which was unfortunate for both sides.

 

I'm going to return it following the advice above and document it fully.

 

Q. Do I point out how reasonable my actions have been in a letter with the parcel and ask that he stop the action?

 

I can also send it via email to the address provided on the claim?

[The GodMother]

Ok just a thought could you contact ebay via the chat option rather than the phone option. 

When l need to make contact with ebay l get the bot but go threw until l get the speak with representive option which then gives me a chat with or call option. 

Then chat option gives you a option to have it sent to your or you can request the rep sends you a copy of the chat and use it 

 

imo l woould not send the item back. You have the item and its the bargaining chip. I would write to them advising that you have followed the rules with ebay and pay pal and as result you will bring this to the courts attention. Advise them that under the consumer rights act 2014 they are responsible for return costs and you require them to provide the returns label for that. 

Further to this you require proof of loss and interest lost. I very much doubt they have lost much interest or anything. 

 

Oh and why did ebay not sort this out over paypal. 

I would have opened a ebay case over a paypal case

[dx100uk]

sent the claimant an email stating

if you discontinue the court claim Using The notice of discontinuance Form N279.

and provide a pre paid label to send the item to you . i will do so 

 

otherwise i will defend the claim using my consumer rights under said act and bring to the courts attention the contents of your phone calls as unreasonable threatening behaviour etc etc.

 

 

[The GodMother]

As Dx said 

Also if they refuse you keep the email and ìt shows you have acted reasonably. 

 

Another thought can you print off the claim you made. This proves the seller had time and done nithing. A holiday is not a excuse according to ebay. Further to this nor is a bank holiday. 

[molly316]

Ok that all sounds reasonable thanks and yes I have asked for copies of transcripts and can print out records etc. I have documented the phone call with eBay who advised they had violated eBay's policies etc.

EBaY: closed the return as it was outside of the return time period so I turned to payPal as they have a longer period to claim £ back.

Q. Can I offer to pay for the return postage next day as if they agree to it's return I can get on with it and they may think they're getting a win?

If it's a straight no I want my saying court response then I have the option to defend then hope they agree to mediation who hopefully will persuade them to accept it back or just pay up and write it off.

Edited October 14, 2022 by molly316

[The GodMother]

No dont be out of pocket. They want it back they pay. They had the chance they did not use it. 

 

[molly316]

No reply received to the email I sent asking for a return label and the 28 days to respond is up today 26/10/22 at 4pm. Suggested next action please? 

 

I get the impression from the words he was using on the phone - theft fraud deception police etc - he's wanting his day in court out of principle? Surely he will get the same money back if it goes to court or if we pay up now or had been given a chance to return it when we weren't out of the country!

[FTMDave]

Do you mean that today is the deadline for Acknowledgement of Service?

[FTMDave]

Sorry, I see you have acknowledged the claim.

 

I have to go to work now, but if you don't follow the instructions on the claim form for filing a defence you will lose by default.

 

If you cough up now you will have to pay costs and if you defend and later lose you will have to pay costs - so it makes sense to defend.

[The GodMother]

Basically put a defense in with a few breif details. 

What does the poc say