Mutating Corona Virus

[brassnecked]

Rishi Rich might have a point even if he is an out of touch obnoxious rich boy. left to Susan Michie we would still be in Lockdown potentially.

Social distancing rules could be needed 'forever' to stop Covid, says SAGE scientist - Mirror Online

WWW.MIRROR.CO.UK

---

Professor Susan Michie, of University College London, said she thinks some restrictions could be needed over the long-term as Brits wait for Boris...

 

[tobyjugg2]

No, he isnt right, in any way.

- 'don't let science and reality get in the way of political agendas'?

That isnt right in any way - and is what has got us where we are - with rivers of doodoo, an NHS on/beyond  the brink, and energy at unpayable levels.

 

and Lockdowns shouldn't have been needed to the extent they were, let alone longer .. if mask mandate, proper messaging and temperature monitors at busy places were installed - the overall mismanagement made it a choice between lockdowns or mass deaths

 

Again - not hindsight as can be seen here.

 

.. which would bring us back to what to do about the refusnicks? Refuse them entry? - too damn right.

- its thereeir choice - yes - as long as other people dont get sick and die as a result of their choices

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

21 hours ago, brassnecked said:

In Wales GP's were doing a great deal of jabbing. 

 

The GP who tried to vaccinate 4,000 people in one weekend in order to protect rural areas - Wales Online

WWW.WALESONLINE.CO.UK

---

Dr Eilir Hughes has worked tirelessly to protect the communities in rural parts of Wales

 

 

""Also, we had to consider whether the staff could cope with the flow of people that came here. But we succeeded and I'm so glad we did.""

 

So although this GP is a ferkin unquestionable hero

Look at the detail and it wasn't him personally doing all the jabs at his surgery, although I dont doubt he probably did loads

 

You would have seen that if you'd actually read it, or even looked at the picture properly.

The situation is as was and will be common at many surgeries where pharmacy staff, nurses and even people with a few hours training with some oranges (official training) were doing the jabs - let alone at the mass vaccination centers.

Just because they were done at a surgery, or a hospital, does NOT mean they were done by medical doctors

(name that fallacy)

 

The VAST majority of jabs were not done by medical doctors - simple fact and common sense. Some were, but a small (very small in most areas) minority in most areas.

 

Very basic sanity checking show these issues with these 'examples. 'tut tut' is all I should say

 

 

[brassnecked]

You miss the point TJ, GP's did some jabbing its obvious they wouldn't be alone doing it.

[tobyjugg2]

On 24/08/2022 at 07:42, tobyjugg2 said:

Regarding nasal sprays (I still think the prior posted examples seem better)

 

A recent one

 

Antiviral Nasal Spray Shows Promise Fighting COVID-19

COVID19.NIH.GOV

---

Nasal spray protects human cells and mice from SARS-CoV-2 infection, prevents severe COVID-19 in mice

 

 

So who seems something VERY questionable with:

 

"The researchers first tried one dose a day for seven days, starting a day before SARS-CoV-2 infection.

When treated with N-0385, 70% of the mice survived and had little to no lung damage.

 

When the treatment course was shortened to four days, starting one day before infection, all 10 of the mice treated with N-0385 survived.

 

Only one of the 20 mice given saline survived."

 

 

As no-one has stuck their head up, the two blindingly obvious ones:

 

1.  95% Death rate from a covid infection?

2. 30% more survived with 60% the application? - So a bit too much of the stuff is actually killing a large proportion?

 

 

 

[theoldrouge]

9 hours ago, brassnecked said:

Rishi Rich might have a point even if he is an out of touch obnoxious rich boy. left to Susan Michie we would still be in Lockdown potentially.

 

Social distancing rules could be needed 'forever' to stop Covid, says SAGE scientist - Mirror Online

WWW.MIRROR.CO.UK

---

Professor Susan Michie, of University College London, said she thinks some restrictions could be needed over the long-term as Brits wait for Boris...

 

Shame he waited so long to say it

But as the great man Sir Winston once said 

“nothing would be more fatal than for the Government of States to get in the hands of experts. Expert knowledge is limited knowledge, and the unlimited ignorance of the plain man who knows where it hurts is a safer guide than any rigorous direction of a specialized character.”

 

How true

[tobyjugg2]

Utter rubbish

 

So was it NOT taking the early advice of science, or taking the later advice of science - that was wrong?

Make your mind up.

 

So even aside from the simple fact that sage was made up of the politically chosen and largely politically directed 'advice'

and indesage's independent and commonly well thought out and sensible advice wasn't followed

 

It is a simple truism that:

The advice (and note it is advice) of scientists is given, and sometimes disagrees (even without the idiotsyncrasies of idiotologies or the dictation of corrupt politicians).

BUT Decisions on actions to be taken by nations are chosen and driven by politicians.

 

Of course, incompetent and corrupt politicians, liars and idiots will often then try to blame the failures of their chosen paths on others

Edited August 25, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

From Kate Bingham who organised the purchase of vaccines for the UK.

 

UK science superpower claim is ‘bollocks’, says Kate Bingham | Medical research | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

Ex vaccines chief aghast at civil service database changes that ‘will deter’ volunteers from signing up

 

[theoldrouge]

On 25/08/2022 at 19:32, theoldrouge said:

Shame he waited so long to say it

But as the great man Sir Winston once said 

“nothing would be more fatal than for the Government of States to get in the hands of experts. Expert knowledge is limited knowledge, and the unlimited ignorance of the plain man who knows where it hurts is a safer guide than any rigorous direction of a specialized character.”

 

How true

So now apparently we have Churchill talking rubbish

 

Now the MOS resident GP( Lets not hear the twitter sneer that’s she’s not a virologist)agrees with my comment entirely 

Government delegation to experts was never going to end well

“Rishi should have spoken up on lockdowns at the time

Rishi Sunak didn’t agree with Covid lockdowns after all, he said in an interview last week.

Apparently he thought the scientists had too much decision-making power, and his colleagues failed to consider the public health impact of locking down.

Well, it would have been nice for him to speak up at the time. I seem to remember that Mr Sunak, along with the rest of the Cabinet Ministers, ignored a letter sent by myself and other GPs warning of the devastation caused by restrictions.

The growing tide of mental illness, missed heart attacks and record delays for cancer treatment were all flagged.

Mr Sunak and his colleagues didn’t even bother to write a response. If he genuinely cared about the health of the nation he would not have stood back and let the lockdowns happen in the way they did. “

Not of course to mention the permanently lost education of millions 

[brassnecked]

@theoldrouge

 

seen this one from Lord Sumption regarding Lockdown?

archive.ph

ARCHIVE.PH

 

[BazzaS]

Whatever they did : “damned if they do, damned if they don’t”

 

stricter lockdown? When would that have ended? (As in China is still enforcing strict lockdowns now).

 

Less strict? Less societal harm from impact on business (and education), but more deaths from an overwhelmed healthcare system (including lack of ITU beds).

 

So, the politicians get criticism regardless - but that was the job they chose, with that risk of criticism inherent.

 

Yet, to know seek to blame the scientific advisors (indirectly, by blaming the outgoing Prime Minister [ / the Cabinet at the time] for listening to them “too much”) : disengenious.

 

The healthcare scientists would have reported the best estimates they had, to the question asked (“estimated number of deaths for Plan A” : here’s the average, best and worst case scenario numbers). They won’t have commented on the societal effect if that was outside their area - up to the government to ask that question (& there were a variety of expert groups across health and behaviour so I can’t imagine there wasn’t a socio-economic group!).

 

So, if it is now “we listened to the experts too much”: perhaps it is “we listened to one set of experts over another set, too much”, but

 

a) That is government’s job, not the fault of the experts, and

b) If you were part of the Cabinet then, don’t criticise now, aiming to make yourself look better. Your choice then was to accept the collective decision and take responsibility for it now, or you could have resigned if you really felt it was that wrong.

 

One can predict, that if asked this question the response will be :

a) I disagreed

b) There was a collective decision

c) I didn’t resign in disagreement as “the country needed me to stay on”.

A politician’s answer, as that way they never have to accept responsibility for anything.

 

So, if they “listened too much to the experts” : it was their job to balance the opinions from the different groups of experts with their conflicting pressures.

 

Blaming the experts, or saying “I disagreed at the time, but went along with it anyway”: what a cop out!

Edited August 29, 2022 by BazzaS

[honeybee13]

Absolutely, Bazza. They should think back to when Covid first appeared and we didn't really know much about it, how it spread, treatments. We only knew it passed by droplets because you told us early on. I don't think what possibly turns out to be over-caution - with hindsight - in dealing with Covid was a bad thing.

 

Someone here agrees with you.

 

Don’t blame scientists, Mr Sunak, when governments rarely act on our advice | Ian Boyd | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

Britain was ill-prepared for a pandemic because politicians didn’t want to make the risks public

 

[honeybee13]

Christina Pagel of Indie Sage agrees with you, Bazza, she mentions rewriting history.

 

 

[BazzaS]

Well, is probably me agreeing with her as she has a wider readership

but I hadn’t seen her article, just reached the conclusions on my own

[unclebulgaria67]

Covid is not over yet. We do not know what variants we will encounter over the coming years. And I am not sure we fully understand the impact that Covid has on the immune system. The number of people testing positive for Covid several times over a relatively short period of time.

 

And there does appear to be an increase in other viruses spreading.

 

Someone in Italy who had just returned from Spain, had Covid, HIV and Monkeypox at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

As it seems we are expecting an early flu season this year, and a fresh upsurge in Codid cases (and hence likely covid mutations), I think that hoping for the best is making the most of the current relative lull

But only planning for the best, is the utmost in stupidity.

 

 

[theoldrouge]

On 28/08/2022 at 19:46, brassnecked said:

@theoldrouge

 

seen this one from Lord Sumption regarding Lockdown?

archive.ph

ARCHIVE.PH

 

Absolutely spot on as usual from Lord Sumption

The scientific genius Prof Ferguson’s predictions were their usual questionable crap yet they were believed despite his track record 

[tobyjugg2]

Although it wasn't - He could have had you 2 in mind too

 

"It's funny, isn't it? That all the blithering idiots, think tank shills, and client journalists, furious at the suggestion that blithering idiots, think tank shills, and client journalists shouldn't be treated with the same amounts of respect as proven authorities and experts.

- James O'Brien

 

The lockdown was the alternative to mass deaths = and was needed as a result of the other policies where science was ignored

Its quite simple, just not as  simply wrong as that 1+1 -1  = 3  article.

 

If the early science had been followed, and the funding had gone to local tracing rather than to dido the incompetent (after Johson had fone around spouting rubbish before he got infected) , then we almost certainly wouldn't have needed more than local (maskless refusnick area) lockdowns - but of course, thats the Johsnonite base isnt it? ooops.

This has already been highlighted here.

 

[tobyjugg2]

On 28/08/2022 at 19:46, brassnecked said:

@theoldrouge

 

seen this one from Lord Sumption regarding Lockdown?

archive.ph

ARCHIVE.PH

 

 

@brassnecked

You actually read it properly?

Apart from the mish mash of self contradicting garbage, which is little more than another 'sunak was part of the mess but is the only one who can clean it' political cheerleading

 

The summary line:

"The result illustrated some of the worst features of top-down government."

 

 

Yep it did. Just not the way they are trying to re-write history.

[honeybee13]

There’s some good news in the battle against long Covid | Danny Altmann | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

UK cases are falling – and scientists around the world are getting closer to being able to define and treat long Covid, says professor of immunology...

 

[tobyjugg2]

On 25/08/2022 at 08:08, tobyjugg2 said:

@theoldrouge@brassnecked

 

Waiting for some support that Blairs Iraq actions were in some real way a significant failure or criminal? or anything other than Justified.

- apart from the (not) endgame which IMO was entirely morally wrong and should have been handled very very differently

.. other than the stance that foreign forces in any land is immoral - with which i agree - but that MAY in some cases be a lessor evil (IMO)

 

and also clarify why you consider the actions under Blairs watch are more 'highlightable' than the actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria under the Tory watch - which I after careful consideration I believe to BE far more criminal and incompetent

- and which arguably largely drove Russia to where it is today. 

 

You both might want to review the Syria thread where many similar issues are considered. Fore-armed ...?

 

 

Putting aside for the moment the simple fact that the initial war with Iraq was the result of them invading another country and the assault of Syria was clearly internationally illegal regime change ...

 

Heres an example from nothing so specialist as wikipedia on operation shader

 

By 26 September 2015, a full year after the operation first began, Tornado and Reaper aircraft had flown over 1,300 missions against ISIL and had conducted more than 300 airstrikes.

The aircraft had released a combined 311 AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, 117 Brimstone missiles and 540 Paveway IV laser-guided bombs by 24 January 2016.^[58] In June 2016, the RAF used its Storm Shadow cruise missiles against ISIL for the first time, attacking a large concrete bunker in Western Iraq.^[59]

 

killing more than 330 ISIL fighters.^[2][56][57]

 

 

Thats more than three bombs/missiles per ISIL figher killed - yet ISIL tanks and howitzers could move with impunity across a desert with more spy planes and satellites over it than in a big brother is watching you wet dream.

So who TF were the RAF bombing?

No wonder ISIL built a caliphate across a number of national borders under such 'incompetence and failure' (aircover?)

 

 

 

Lets not forget that with Blair - Saddam was driven out of invaded Kuwait, and his murderous rape and pillage expansion across the middle east ended.

 

 

 

21 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Although it wasn't - He could have had you 2 in mind too

 

"It's funny, isn't it? That all the blithering idiots, think tank shills, and client journalists, furious at the suggestion that blithering idiots, think tank shills, and client journalists shouldn't be treated with the same amounts of respect as proven authorities and experts.

- James O'Brien

 

The lockdown was the alternative to mass deaths = and was needed as a result of the other policies where science was ignored

Its quite simple, just not as  simply wrong as that 1+1 -1  = 3  article.

 

If the early science had been followed, and the funding had gone to local tracing rather than to dido the incompetent (after Johson had fone around spouting rubbish before he got infected) , then we almost certainly wouldn't have needed more than local (maskless refusnick area) lockdowns - but of course, thats the Johsnonite base isnt it? ooops.

This has already been highlighted here.

 

 

21 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

@brassnecked

You actually read it properly?

Apart from the mish mash of self contradicting garbage, which is little more than another 'sunak was part of the mess but is the only one who can clean it' political cheerleading

 

The summary line:

"The result illustrated some of the worst features of top-down government."

 

 

Yep it did. Just not the way they are trying to re-write history.

 

 

Still waiting for some effective and real counter?

 

I'll add more

 

Do you remember the 22 million people who were flown back from foreign covid hotspots into UK airports, and then simply sent across the country home with nothing more than a suggestion to some (and not many apparently)  that they maybe should consider self isolating - maybe rather than spread any infections other than on the trip home..... and that wasn't  just at the beginning

 

 

Regarding Sage + the 'scientific opinions differing

Of course they differed when you look who was on it: real quality scientists, political appointee scientists/heads of areas and a couple of purely political appointees, including the regular attendance of Cummings

and who remembers both van damn (lol) and whittering being uncomfortable and fencing questions with 'thats a political decision' at the podiums

Play spot the real scientist: Click on the link and see your swamp gas evaporate into just a bit more climate change eh?

 

the Guardian revealed the 23 attendees of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage).

They comprise 21 scientists and two Downing Street political advisers.

 

 

 

Still also waiting some coherent and meaningful reasons why you two consider Blair worse than later Tory involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan (shameful retreat)  and Syria (air cover for isis)  by you two.

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

It's not going well for Michelle Mone but the taxpayer is doing badly as well.

 

HMRC issues winding up petition against PPE firm linked to Tory peer | Conservatives | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

---

PPE Medpro was awarded £203m contracts by UK government after Michelle Mone approached Michael Gove

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Wonder what the Chinese Government knows about Covid that the rest of world does not ?

 

New 'Zero Covid' lockdown in China sparks panic-buying as Chengdu residents scramble to stock up | Daily Mail Online

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

---

Shocking footage shows people in the city of Chengdu clambering over each other at supermarket counters and stripping shelves bare amid fears that...

 

[tobyjugg2]

What in any way is strange?

 

1. China has always had hard lock downs to quell covid spread through its immense population centers

2. The next wave is expected, and there are concerns it might align with a bad flu season although it might not.

3. The mail is full of doodoo, not anywhere near as much as the Telegraph, which makes even UK water companies seem clean, but still ..

 

Remember the start of this thread? I suggest you look again at the first page of posts.

They are perhaps just trying to ensure they don't repeat a mistake, unlike our press.

[tobyjugg2]

As some of you seem to have forgotten the realities, I'll let led by donkeys remind you of a few of Johnson 'The Corrupt Liars' covid and other failures (and an early warning or two for Truss - be interesting to see if she remains inept or has learned from Johnson and Trump).

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by tobyjugg2