Mutating Corona Virus

[tobyjugg2]

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

For most people (fit and healthy under say 60), it does appear that getting Covid and then having natural immunity is probably better than vaccination ?

 

No real evidence for that whatsoever - quite the opposite

 

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

As for O-AZ, this may have provided limited protection against original Covid strains, but Covid has mutated many times since and I have not heard that O-AZ is being improved to protect against current Covid variants ?

 

There were some murmers, but I think the damage caused by the Johnsonesque associations .(dishonesty) was insurmountable while Johnson was in power.

 

Hers how I believe it went :

Oxford scientist

This looks really promising and we will have completed adequate levels of testing and evidence within a couple months

Johsnon representative

Just get some evidence that it wont cause mass deaths and has some effect and we'll pass it. I see a wealth, fame and a knighthood for you here

Oxford scientist

Well I'll speed it up as much as i can

Johnson rep:

Faster than that

 

- then limited test data was supplied and Johnson people did what Johnson does - and royally screwed it by treating everyone else with contempt and trying to cheat them - when they didn't need to and simply shouldn't have.

 

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

Other vaccines are now seen to be more effective and less risky ?

 

'seen to be' - yes. The reality is far more muddled

and lets not forget that those others are only just testing an original omicron variant vaccine

 

 

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

Most of us will know someone with long Covid and how much it has devastated their lives. One of my colleagues is now in a position where they may have to retire early on health grounds. There does not  seem to be any treatments available through NHS at the moment to improve their health. They cannot walk across a room without having breathing difficulties, requiring them to sit down to recover.

 

Vaccination does seem to help many - but not everyone

 

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

Which current vaccines offer best protection to most vulnerable ? 

 

There is no real answer to that as far as I am aware. People and the effects are just too varied.

 

19 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

Will there be better options than vaccine by injection ?  There was mention of nasal sprays that could be used by people when Covid levels were high, that would be more effective than wearing masks ?  Is this still being researched ? Use of nasal sprays can cause problems such as making  nose more sensitive e.g. increased sneezing, nose bleeds, so I wonder whether this might stop this option being made available.

 

 

Good questions

Masks work very effectively against all variants .. so far

So reasonably effective nasal spray should be effective - but dont forget the other aspects where masks would work better

- ie in reminding you to not rub your eyes, or mouth unless hands are clean - and what about those who breath through their mouth a lot?

Edited August 24, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Regarding nasal sprays (I still think the prior posted examples seem better)

 

A recent one

 

Antiviral Nasal Spray Shows Promise Fighting COVID-19

COVID19.NIH.GOV

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Nasal spray protects human cells and mice from SARS-CoV-2 infection, prevents severe COVID-19 in mice

 

 

So who seems something VERY questionable with:

 

"The researchers first tried one dose a day for seven days, starting a day before SARS-CoV-2 infection.

When treated with N-0385, 70% of the mice survived and had little to no lung damage.

 

When the treatment course was shortened to four days, starting one day before infection, all 10 of the mice treated with N-0385 survived.

 

Only one of the 20 mice given saline survived."

 

[tobyjugg2]

and worth a read from last year - little has actually changed other than reduced claims after being threatened.

 

Covid nasal spray claims go too far - Which? News

WWW.WHICH.CO.UK

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Nasal sprays sold at LloydsPharmacy and online withdrawn after Which? raises concerns with regulators

 

 

 

latest:

First Covid nasal spray vaccine, set to vaccinate world's poorest, enters human trials

INEWS.CO.UK

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Unless the majority of the world is vaccinated, new Covid-19 variants will keep emerging, say experts. UK scientists behind a new nasal spray...

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[theoldrouge]

17 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Right wing nutterness coming out

 

So who was injected by a doctor?

I wasn't injected by a doctor in any of the jabs

My other half and our daughters and son in laws weren't injected by doctors (2 of them NHS staff)

 

That the NHS is drastically undefunded and has been focused on critical care including a lot of critical unvaccinated  covid patients has been detailed in stats here all along. Unvaccinated people were in the vast majority of severely affected hospitalised people.

This has changed somewhat with Omicron versions, where vaccinated hospitalisation outnumber vaccinated - but understand why rather than spouting nonesense.

 

That the NHS is in dire straights is beyond question - but due to Tory underfunding.

 

Pull your heads out of your asses

You should now better - well one of you at least

Merely stating the facts

I-am sure BN can speak for himself 

 

[tobyjugg2]

11 minutes ago, theoldrouge said:

Merely stating the facts

I-am sure BN can speak for himself 

 

 

You may, possibly have been one of the tiny minority who was vaccinated by an actual medical doctor,

but thats about the extent of your entirely unsupported 'facts'.

Edited August 24, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

I seem to have missed the point about being vaccinated by a doctor. Why is this important please?

[brassnecked]

In Wales GP's were doing a great deal of jabbing. 

The GP who tried to vaccinate 4,000 people in one weekend in order to protect rural areas - Wales Online

WWW.WALESONLINE.CO.UK

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Dr Eilir Hughes has worked tirelessly to protect the communities in rural parts of Wales

 

[honeybee13]

Well done him.

[brassnecked]

The downside was people had difficulty getting appointments and repeat prescriptions as all was concentrated on vaccination, so now whe have the likes of Karol Sikora  blaming the NHS  conversion to the  National Covid  Service for all the cancer's etc now presenting. Nobody wins in this game whatever they do.

[theoldrouge]

4 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

You may, possibly have been one of the tiny minority who was vaccinated by an actual medical doctor,

but thats about the extent of your entirely unsupported 'facts'.

As I said I was stating facts

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-61885899.amp

[honeybee13]

That's a very sad story. 

 

So have we moved on from being vaccinated by a doctor now?

 

[brassnecked]

No TJ fallen down another rabbit hole regarding where the AZ vaccine has disapperared off to.

[tobyjugg2]

Sad as it was, that is one event - there are possibly a handful or thereabouts @theoldrouge

In the real world, thats far far less than die from paracetamol (suicides excluded) now isnt it?

Are you stopping taking paracetamol or ibuprofen?

How about water - quite a few people drown every day

 

Using one of a handful of tragic events to try and attack vaccine use is despicable IMO

What about the millions saved by the vaccines (including o/AZ)?

 

 

Make a point if you have one @brassnecked

AZ dont even know if they are staying in the vaccine business - per their own stock market announcements

- and they still aren't approved in the US

 

What rabbit hole?

 

I agree that the NHS was focused on the immediate issues - mostly unvaccinated sick people as shown

and that the EXISTING backlog before covid grew - with some, probably quite a lot - dying and many cancers tragically undiagnosed

- THATS lack of funding and was already occurring before covid NOW WASN'T IT?

 

What could the NHS have done with the Billions given to dido with the Tories calling that funding the NHS?

What could the NHS and the civil service procurement experts have done with the PPE money gifted to VIPals and calling that funding the NHS?

 

So what is your point?

 

[unclebulgaria67]

It is going to take a long time for any major studies on Covid Vaccines to be issued.

 

There are some initial studies into some issues linked to the vaccines, such as this link.

 

Adenoviral-based COVID-19 vaccines may up short-term cardiovascular risk

MEDICALXPRESS.COM

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Adenoviral-based COVID-19 vaccines may be associated with increased incidence of myocardial infarction and pulmonary embolism among people...

 

 

Risk for Myocardial Infarction, Stroke, and Pulmonary Embolism Following COVID-19 Vaccines in Adults Younger Than 75 Years in France | Annals of Internal Medicine

WWW.ACPJOURNALS.ORG

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Background: The BNT162b2 (Pfizer–BioNTech) vaccine has been shown to be safe with regard to risk for severe cardiovascular events (such as...

 

 

 

 

 

[brassnecked]

As it happens TJ if someone wants a treatment of any kind its their choice, so long as full informed consent obtained and information on potential side effects fully explained. Not up to any of us to force an unwanted procedure on anyone.  incidentally the reason for vaccinating children for Covid  isn't fully made out is it?  The vaccines are part of available interventions so no reason at all why someone shouldn't have one if they want especially if vulnerable in some way.

 

 Now as I have a couple of allergies and a definite vaccine intolerance as in a flu jab nearly killed me in 2018, my GP advised against the Covid jab for me.  The Moderna has an ingredient I would have an immediate reaction to, and that's all they were offering where I am at the time.  Should I have had  the vaccination possibly died and took one for the "herd"?  I have not had so much as a sniffle all through the crisis or caught covid since Lockdowns started.  maybe I'm just lucky or maybe had some  natural immunity having had what the GP said must have been covid in  February 2020 as our Council Clerk had been in a bar socialising with some people who had been in that Italian Ski resort where there was definitely covid rampant she was coughing all over us in that meeting, it lasted 5 days and I had the classic symptoms we came to know about later.

 

[tobyjugg2]

On 23/01/2020 at 13:04, tobyjugg2 said:

I think of far greater importance is the poor people who have been convinced by those who say the MMR vaccine causes autism and so those people, thinking they are protecting their children rather thygan putting them at risk, dont get those children vaccinated.

 

 

The reality of course is that ANY risk from the vaccine is astonishingly small, and the benefits are astoundingly large.

 

its a sad fact that in the UK we are close to the level of 'none take up' where we will lose our 'herd' immunity despite many kids inheriting a level of immunity from their inoculated parents, that is by no means certain. Just like with the Victorian horror of TB which still lurks waiting.

http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/herd-immunity

 

So, unlike politicians lies, when we do get an outbreak those kids who weren't inoculated and contributed to that loss of herd immunity will suffer the utterly horrendous consequences first and hardest.

 

 

 

In fact, I'm so convinced that if it were suggested by a reputable source that there was evidence that a fresh booster on top of the ordinary ones just could aid in improving immunity

... I'd be queuing up and suggesting all my loved ones  do the same.

 

 

On 23/01/2020 at 14:01, tobyjugg2 said:

The UK has actually lost its WHO 'elimination' status

 

Why have we lost elimination status?

WHO defines measles elimination as the absence of circulating measles, in the presence of high vaccine coverage, along with good systems to identify cases of the disease. In countries that have eliminated measles, measles can still occur, but these will be isolated cases that only have limited spread within the community.

The UK initially achieved WHO measles elimination status in 2017, based on data from 2014-2016.

However, in 2018, there was a marked increase in the number of confirmed measles cases, with 991 confirmed cases in England and Wales, compared with 284 cases in 2017.  Furthermore, the same strain of measles virus (called B3 Dublin) was detected for more than 12 months across 2017 and 2018. Based on this, WHO determined that the UK could no longer be consider as ‘eliminated’ and that transmission of measles had been re-established.

The UK has actually lost its 'elimination' status on measels

 

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2019/08/19/measles-in-england/

 

 

 

 

 

and anyone who isn't concerned, should be

Latest update

In England, 301 new measles infections were confirmed in the period between April and June 2019 compared to 231 in the first quarter of 2019. Cases were reported in all regions except the North East. Most cases (266) were in unvaccinated individuals aged 15 years and over.

Continuing the increase seen between January and March, 2,028 cases of mumps were also confirmed in the second quarter of 2019, compared to 795 last quarter. The increase in mumps has been mostly driven by outbreaks in university students. Cases were reported across England, predominantly in young adults aged 15 to 34 years.

 

Dr Mary Ramsay, Head of Immunisation at Public Health England (PHE) said:

Although it is normal to see mumps outbreaks in universities every few years, we are seeing a significant number of cases, the highest quarterly figure since 2009.

Coupled with the continued measles outbreaks these figures clearly demonstrate the need for sustained high vaccination rates.

We’re urging parents and their children, no matter how old they are, to check they’ve had 2 doses of MMR. Measles is easy to catch and can kill. Vaccines are there to stop the spread of disease and save lives.

It’s never too late to protect yourself and others.

Nearly half of the mumps cases this quarter were unvaccinated. While the mumps component of the Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccine is highly effective at protecting young children, immunity can reduce over time. Therefore, older teenagers and adults who received two doses of MMR in childhood can still get mumps although this is generally mild compared to those who are unvaccinated.

One new case of rubella re-infection in a pregnant woman was also reported.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mmr-vaccination-call-following-high-numbers-of-measles-cases

 

 

 

Just re-making the point that it was the existing anti-vaxxers which spread to Coronavirus anti-vax - not vice versa, as recently alluded,

although I entirely agree that the early statements on 'effectiveness by Johnson et al with o-az based on about 20 results carefully selected from about 40 despite 100's thousands vaccinated by then no doubt added to the damage, and made the sort of utter horse radish posted by existing anti-vaxxers/a number of people here more believable to far too many.

 

For all my (detailed here) doubts regarding O-AZ, and would have preferred the pfiser or moderna from jab 1

- I still quite clearly stated if the O/az was what was available - get it - AS I DID  - as stated here at the time.

 

[unclebulgaria67]

I am not sure people are informed enough on medical choices.   I suffer from sciatica on occasions and was taking Ibrupofen. Doctors have previously recommended this.  I then suffered from high blood pressure and stopped taking the Ibrupofen and within 10 days my blood pressure was back to normal.

 

I watched a video on anti-inflammotories and all of the options available, even turmeric had side effects.  I guess just because it is based on a natural substance, that some people might wrongly believe they don't cause significant issues. 

 

I tried Aloe Vera as a health supplement and that caused me problems.  Told the Health Shop that sold it, that they needed to point out potential bad side effects and what people needed to watch out for. And to stop taking the supplement if they notice any issues.

[brassnecked]

The downsides definitely need highlighting UB so we can make that choice.  TJ seems to have me down as a rabid anti-vaxxer so I will butt out of this thread.

[tobyjugg2]

You could always clarify your position, and present as not one?

- if that is the case?

.. or support your stance as one with some reasoned presentation - which I would undoubtedly challenge while expecting a ripost

- if that is the case

 

I dont expect to convince you, just raise enough doubt so you challenge yourself

I challenge myself almost constantly.

 

[unclebulgaria67]

There are a significant number of medical professionals who did not take up Covid vaccinations, based on their medical training and their reading of the vaccine trial information available.

 

And there were a significant number of people who could not have the vaccines because the injections were thought to be a greater risk to them. So medical, advice was not to have vaccines.

 

Hopefully with more time having been spent on research and trials, there will be many more options available, so if  Covid takes a turn for the worse with a stronger variant spreading fast, the NHS will be equipped with a range of injections, tablets, nasal sprays etc.

[tobyjugg2]

7 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

There are a significant number of medical professionals who did not take up Covid vaccinations, based on their medical training and their reading of the vaccine trial information available.

 

Nope, the majority were ideological refusniks who used twisted stats )like Johnson and o-AZ but reversed) to justify their decision.

The early stats from the Johnson/O-AZ alliance were and are questionable, but with all the information available since those early days, there is little scientific opinion to support that stance.

There are some religious grounds, and there are ideological 'grounds' which are little more than 'beliefs'

 

 

7 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

And there were a significant number of people who could not have the vaccines because the injections were thought to be a greater risk to them. So medical, advice was not to have vaccines.

 

'Significant number'?

Define 'significant number' : 1%, 0.1% .. less?

 

7 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

 

Hopefully with more time having been spent on research and trials, there will be many more options available, so if  Covid takes a turn for the worse with a stronger variant spreading fast, the NHS will be equipped with a range of injections, tablets, nasal sprays etc.

 

When covid takes a turn for the worse, lets hope so.

BUT masks will still almost certainly be effective - if enough people use them in crowded places.

- but dont expect the NHS to have these options - MOST WILL be private and paid for.

 

In the meantime, I WILL be having my (hopefully at least dual strain) booster and my flu jab as soon as available

 

[tobyjugg2]

16 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

I seem to have missed the point about being vaccinated by a doctor. Why is this important please?

 

its was used in a compiling of misleading and only minimally related statements with small elements of possible truth, to try to justify a horseshit ideological 'conclusion' (sic) ... (fallacies)

- A combination of a number of fallacious techniques commonly used by the 'right wing to 'justify ideological (aka idiot-illogical) claims.

Commonly fallen back on when the empty soundbites (which can be very effective) are rigorously challenged.

 

 

They are and have been used a lot by a few people here. I sometimes (perhaps incorrectly morally) just turn them around on the presenter, but always try to include simple actual truthful examples of reality.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

@theoldrouge@brassnecked

 

Waiting for some support that Blairs Iraq actions were in some real way a significant failure or criminal? or anything other than Justified.

- apart from the (not) endgame which IMO was entirely morally wrong and should have been handled very very differently

.. other than the stance that foreign forces in any land is immoral - with which i agree - but that MAY in some cases be a lessor evil (IMO)

 

and also clarify why you consider the actions under Blairs watch are more 'highlightable' than the actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria under the Tory watch - which I after careful consideration I believe to BE far more criminal and incompetent

- and which arguably largely drove Russia to where it is today. 

 

You both might want to review the Syria thread where many similar issues are considered. Fore-armed ...?

 

 

Putting aside for the moment the simple fact that the initial war with Iraq was the result of them invading another country and the assault of Syria was clearly internationally illegal regime change ...

 

Heres an example from nothing so specialist as wikipedia on operation shader

 

By 26 September 2015, a full year after the operation first began, Tornado and Reaper aircraft had flown over 1,300 missions against ISIL and had conducted more than 300 airstrikes.

The aircraft had released a combined 311 AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, 117 Brimstone missiles and 540 Paveway IV laser-guided bombs by 24 January 2016.^[58] In June 2016, the RAF used its Storm Shadow cruise missiles against ISIL for the first time, attacking a large concrete bunker in Western Iraq.^[59]

 

killing more than 330 ISIL fighters.^[2][56][57]

 

 

Thats more than three bombs/missiles per ISIL figher killed - yet ISIL tanks and howitzers could move with impunity across a desert with more spy planes and satellites over it than in a big brother is watching you wet dream.

So who TF were the RAF bombing?

No wonder ISIL built a caliphate across a number of national borders under such 'incompetence and failure' (aircover?)

 

 

 

Lets not forget that with Blair - Saddam was driven out of invaded Kuwait, and his murderous rape and pillage expansion across the middle east ended.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

By 26 September 2015, a full year after the operation first began, Tornado and Reaper aircraft had flown over 1,300 missions against ISIL and had conducted more than 300 airstrikes.

The aircraft had released a combined 311 AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, 117 Brimstone missiles and 540 Paveway IV laser-guided bombs by 24 January 2016.^[58] In June 2016, the RAF used its Storm Shadow cruise missiles against ISIL for the first time, attacking a large concrete bunker in Western Iraq.^[59]

 

killing more than 330 ISIL fighters.

 

- Clarification

That was 330 isil fighters killed TOTAL in all those strikes, not just the cruise strike

Edited August 25, 2022 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

While we wait ...

 

Richie Rich says

 

Darn scientists had to much say in lockdowns

Herd immunity and survival of the fittest/richest should have been the way

- We need hardy serfs to work the fields on minimal rations (the weeds they need to pick - good fresh greens) not people who need an NHS they cant afford

 

‘Mistake’ to empower scientists in Covid pandemic, says Sunak – live

WWW.INDEPENDENT.CO.UK

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Ex-chancellor claims Sage advisory group edited its minutes to hide dissenting opinions