unknown congestion charge PCN - Now Bailiffs - Dissolved Ltd Co.

[rattlywelshboy]

Hi All,

 

Seems to be never ending witn these people.

 

Yesterday I was at home and a bailiff from Marstons knocked on my door and wanted to collect money for a PCN. 

The paperwork was in the name of my old company but also had my name on it as a contact.

 

I was totally unaware of this PCN and I explained that the vehicle was registered in the company name and was used by about 4 workers including myself.  Also that whilst the company was registered at my home address it was closed down and dissolved in august 2018.

 

He went on to say that as my name was given by the DVLA as a contact although the vehicle was registered in the company name I am liable for the debt and it makes no difference that the company was dissolved nearly a year ago.

 

I called the transport for London who advised just to pay it, then they went on to say to complete an Out of Time statutory declaration and sent it in to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

 

Needless to say the bailiff did leave eventually after leaving a letter which he has now put my name only on it and said he will be back.

 

Any thoughts?

 

thanks

[Bailiff Advice]

You mention that the paperwork provided by the bailiff was in the name of your 'old company'. and that the vehicle was registered in the 'company name' and lastly, that 'the company' was closed down and dissolved in August 2018.  This is all very confusing indeed. 

 

Can we just be clear....was the company registered as a Limited Company?

 

At the time of the contravention, was the vehicle registered on the V5C (Log Book) in the name of the Limited Company?

 

Since the 'company' was dissolved in August 2018, what has happened to the vehicle? Is it still registered in the name of the Limited Company?  Has it been sold?

 

[brassnecked]

It will depend on what name was on the V5 at DVLA at the time of the issue of the PCN, if you could respond to BA we can advise further.

[rattlywelshboy]

Hi,

 

The bailiff claimed that the paperwork he had was in the company name which was a limited company.  He said it was for a PCN that was unpaid.  However he also said that the information that the DVLA gave showed me as a contact.

 

I explained that I didn't know anything about the PCN and that the limited company is dissolved.  The vehicle in question was a van which was in the company name was sold when the company ceased.

 

The bailiff has then said that as my name has been given by the dvla that I am now liable for the debt?

 

The V5 was in the company name. but they have my name as a contact? according to the bailiff.

Also the date of the PCN was before the company was dissolved.

[brassnecked]

Quite possibly then the nailiff cannot collect, I would hide any motors for now, perhaps BA, or one of the regulars  will pop in to confirm, that as vehicle was registered with the Company it would be liable.  Do you still have the vehicle?

[rattlywelshboy]

No, the van was sold last year when the company was dissolved.

 

I saw the Bailiff parked behind my car before he came and knocked on my door.  Not sure if he did a DVLA check on my car but he never mentioned my car when he was talking.  Once I told him that the company was closed last year he just wrote a letter and gave it to me, however like I mentioned in my first post the letter is addressed to me only and does not have the company name on it?

[brassnecked]

Don't think he can take your goods for a defunct Company debt, but he will want the money so might just carry on Enforcement hoping you pay up, as in keep calling but do nothing that might give him grief later like clamping your car.  The regulars will probably give some salient advice soon.

[rattlywelshboy]

ok thanks for your input

[unclebulgaria67]

Suggest that you complete the out of time statutory declaration with all of the details.

 

I would guess that if you were the director of this limited company that was dissolved, that you could still be liable. Doubt the Government would leave any loophole for companies with vehicles to escape PCN's after dissolution.  There will be a responsible director with on-going liability and as your name is on the DVLA records, it appears to be you.

[brassnecked]

That is a definite possibility, that OOT is a good idea, if accepted it will reset the debt to the original sum to pay or dispute and remove the bailiff fees.

[rattlywelshboy]

ok I will fill in the out of time statutory declaration.  My understanding is that the clock gets reset to when the PCN was originally issued?  If so then what do I do then as the company lo longer exists, I don't know who was driving the van on the day of the PCN so not much help 

[unclebulgaria67]

Out of time statutory declaration is just stating reasons for wanting the clock to be wound back to when Transport for London first sent out letter demanding the PCN be paid.

 

Reason: vehicle Registration xxxxxxxxxx was a company vehicle registered to xxxxx ltd company and the vehicle was used by x number of employees of this company. The company was dissolved on xx date and the vehicle was sold on xx date. My name xxxxxxxx was noted as a contact name on the V5 registration document, but I have never received any correspondence from Transport for London and I was not aware of any PCN being issued at the time of any contravention. The first time I was made aware of the PCN was on xxxxx date, when an Enforcement Officer from Marstons visited my private address.

 

Not an expert in this and hopefully Bailiff Advice or others will be around at some point to confirm whether this would be correct or not.

 

 

[BazzaS]

Could an out of time statement create a liability?

 

Surely at the moment they are pursuing the OP as director of the now dissolved company and they can only go after company assets.

if the company is gone, the OP isn’t a director: so in what capacity do they plan to make an OOT statement? They aren’t a director anymore.

 

Would it be better to not make the OOT, and say “the company has gone, there are no assets remaining to enforce against, and any personal assets I have aren’t subject to any warrant of control you may have for company assets”

[brassnecked]

The company is gone,so like a deceased person who has capacity for OOT?

[unclebulgaria67]

I don't think the out of time statutory declaration creates any liability. It is just stating that the liable party at the time of contravention may no longer exist or is open to debate, whether the director stated on the vehicle registration is still the liable party. The OOTSD could also state that the dissolved company has zero assets remaining.

 

Transport for London according to the first post in thread asked for the OOTSD. So obviously they won't call off Marstons and Marstons will just continue trying to collect. So if the OOTSD is not completed, then I cannot see how this matter will be resolved.

 

 

[BazzaS]

You cannot see how this matter will be resolved.

How about if this were instead for a parking ticket for an individual, not a dissolved company.

 

An individual who has died, and the OP was an executor for the estate. The estate has been through probate, the executor of the estate behaved correctly in its administration and discharged their fiduciary duties properly, (including issuing a notice inviting any claims against the estate).

Are you saying that the executor should;

a) File an OOT, or

b) Say to TfL / the enforcement agent : The estate has been settled and has gone. There is nothing left to enforce against - in that respect you are indeed “out of time”.

 

i think the 2 scenarios are analogous. The company has died (been dissolved), and (provided the OP behaved correctly as a director), the OP has no more liability than if they behaved correctly as an executor for an individual who died, once the estate has been lawfully distributed, if all was done correctly: no personal liability.

[Bailiff Advice]

On 25/05/2019 at 19:53, rattlywelshboy said:

ok I will fill in the out of time statutory declaration.  

 

Let me be clear here.....the vehicle was registered in the name of a LIMITED COMPANY and as such; was owned by  the Limited Company that is now dissolved. End of the matter. The debt cannot be enforced. 

 

If it is the case that the registration document also records the name of Mr Rattlywelshboy then it would be clear to me that this would merely refer to you as being the DIRECTOR of the limited company . It cannot in any way turn a limited company debt (or asset) into a personal one. 

 

I would suggest that you call the Traffic Enforcement Centre when they open on Tuesday and ask them to confirm the precise name and address on the warrant. You might want to ask them whether a request to reissue the warrant had been made. 

 

On 25/05/2019 at 19:53, rattlywelshboy said:

ok I will fill in the out of time statutory declaration.  

My understanding is that the clock gets reset to when the PCN was originally issued?  If so then what do I do then as the company lo longer exists, I don't know who was driving the van on the day of the PCN so not much help 

 

There is a huge amount of  misunderstanding about an Out of Time statutory declaration (or witness statement). In simple terms, it is a formal request to ask that the debt registration (and bailiff fees) be cancelled, and a new penalty charge notice  issued because there had been a MISTAKE at an earlier stage in the PCN process (most usually; that all previous correspondence had been sent to a previous address etc).

 

Despite the fact that these are court documents, it is unfortunately the case that  motorists draft these forms for the same reason that you have outlined above (believing that the clock will be reset back to when the PCN was originally issued). Let me be clear...this is NOT the case at all. Only if the local authority are willing to give their permission allowing you to file a witness statement LATE will the debt be cancelled and a new PCN issued. And unfortunately, in excess of  65% of these applications are REJECTED. The reason is almost always because of poorly drafted forms. Anyone considering submitting an Out of Time witness statement should take ADVICE beforehand. 

 

One point that I should make is that is would not matter who was driving the car on the date of contravention. Liability rests with the registered KEEPER (which would be the LIMITED COMPANY)  and not the driver. 

 

On 25/05/2019 at 21:25, brassnecked said:

The company is gone,so like a deceased person who has capacity for OOT?

 

My point entirely. 

The Limited Company no longer exists. It's bank account has been closed and it cannot pay it's debts.  There is NO Director. Therefore, neither Mr Rattlywelshboy or anyone else has the legal authority to sign an Out of Time statutory declaration. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Bailiff Advice

[brassnecked]

This could go round in circles, the bailiff wants his fees so might carry on until TFL call him off, might be an issue if he clamps Rattlywelshboy's car for the deceased companies debt, and it ends up as a Third party claim that might even escalate to Interpleader if the bailiff removed the vehicle.  Needs clarification, as TFL and Marstons aren't going  to give up on their payday  without a fight, even though on the face of it the debtor is as dead as the Norwegian Blue in the Python sketch, and the debt is technically irrecoverable..

[Bailiff Advice]

I would suggest that before going any further that the OP waits until Tuesday to speak with the Traffic Enforcement Centre for clarification on the exact name and address on the warrant. 

[brassnecked]

That seems to be best plan for now, then he can come back with what TFL say 

[rattlywelshboy]

Thanks everyone, I will call them on Tuesday to see what they have to say then I'll update you all.

[rattlywelshboy]

Hi All,

I called the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre) and asked them about the Warrant.  They advised that the PCN info they received from congestion charge/transport for London was in the company name but also had my name on it as well.  

They advised me to complete the OOT declaration and also to contact the congestion charge people.  I called the congestion charge who advise that the vehicle is both mine and the company name so either would be liable.

I said that it can't be registered to 2 entities at the same time and that in what capacity would I complete it and get it witnessed as I am no longer a director of the dissolved company.  They said that the info they received from the DVLA showed the company name as well as mine.

I spoke to the DVLA and they conformed that the vehicle was in the company name with my name as the contact as per the V5 when it was completed. 

I called the TEC back and they continued to say that I should complete the OOT and put that the company is dissolved and to provide proof from companies house and to state that I am completing the form as a 3rd party no longer connected with the company?

All a bit confusing but maybe I should fill it in?