Palmer Biggs threaten legal action counterfeit fabric? eBay

[yaliyas]

The part in the letter where you say "In the event of your client bringing any civil proceedings against me on his claim, I confirm the same will be defended in full measure and I will seek my costs." I feel like I'm challenging them which is not my intention at all. Am I reading this wrong?

 

Sorry for all the questions!

 

I did write above that I bought the fabric for £90 and sold it for £250

[renegadeimp]

yaliyas. with the utmost respect, please ignore the advice from haunter. You will be given thought out and correct advice later today. Dont panic yourself into thinking you have to follow timelines that youve been given. You dont.

[yaliyas]

OK, I will. Well the draft letter is gone from the post now so I can't do anything about it...

[BankFodder]

I'm doing this on my phone

 

but very briefly if the seller does not have the right to the fabric then the seller to certainly doesn't have the right to give you permission to sell or not to sell

 

However let me say it is almost impossible to put a restriction on reselling on a private buyer does buying outright and not simply owning a licence

 

Also I'm afraid to say that selling infringing copies is very strict and that means that you can't excuse yourself by saying that you didn't know

 

However, if you didn't know then that would reduce any award of Damages against you if it went to court.

 

I'll try to answer more detail later

[yaliyas]

I've got the scanned pages now.

 

But I've been reading the threads that you've sent through and in one of them it says that they were contacted for sharing the contents of their letter and my letter also says

 

"strictly private and confidential - adressee only

Copyright protected - no consent for reproduction in whole or in part of the contents of this letter"

 

I really don't want to get in to even more trouble...

 

Though I know you said you couldn't help me if you didn't have all the information...

[Haunter]

Where an infringer did not know and had no reason to believe that copyright or design right subsisted in the work, the rights owner cannot claim damages (albeit there is still infringement). This protection is prescribed in s.97 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act of 1988, which provides:

97 Provisions as to damages in infringement action.E+W+S+N.I.

(1)Where in an action for infringement of copyright it is shown that at the time of the infringement the defendant did not know, and had no reason to believe, that copyright subsisted in the work to which the action relates, the plaintiff is not entitled to damages against him, but without prejudice to any other remedy.

(2)The court may in an action for infringement of copyright having regard to all the circumstances, and in particular to—

(a)the flagrancy of the infringement, and

(b)any benefit accruing to the defendant by reason of the infringement,

award such additional damages as the justice of the case may require.

Therefore, as a matter of law, the material set out in my posts are 100% correct in law, and yaliyas has a statutory defence against the claim made against her by Palmer Briggs on behalf of their client.

Yaliyas owes them nothing and cannot be sued for any monies.

Merry Christmas

Haunter

[renegadeimp]

yaliyas you are overthinking. They cannot do anything to do. its standard crap that companies throw on all letters to give themselves some kind of self importance. You arent going to get into ANY trouble whatsoever for this.

[yaliyas]

Bankfodder, I followed your advice and rather than contacting the solicitors, I e-mailed Cath Kidston instead:

 

“I received a letter today from Palmer Biggs IP Solicitors who claim to be acting on behalf of your company.

 

I sew cushions, curtains, etc. as a hobby and sell the fabric leftover from my projects on eBay and Etsy to cover some of the cost of my handmade items.

 

I live very close to Cath Kidston’s outlet and purchase most of my fabric from there and have several VAT receipts for these fabrics (and tablecloths that I use as fabric). I also purchase my fabric from other eBay/Etsy sellers and online stores…

 

In August 2017, I found this fabric with a simple Google search and I purchased it from an online store (http://www.towntiger.com) to make curtains for our living room and dining room. I changed my mind about the curtains after I received them and decided to re-sell this fabric on eBay myself to cover the cost.

 

I wasn’t aware that this fabric was counterfeit fabric until I checked the website today and found a notice there saying that the website is shut down for the sale of products bearing counterfeit trademarks.

 

Since August, I have sold most of the fabric that I had and only have a little less than a metre of it left in my fabric cupboard.

 

The letter I received today from solicitors Palmer Biggs IP say that I have to pay them over two thousand pounds to cover their fees. I can't afford to pay this much money... I am however happy to give you the money that I made from selling this fabric and handover the remaining fabric which is a little less than a metre.

 

Can I please ask you to confirm that this letter is legitimate and advise what I need to do?”

[renegadeimp]

why are you doing any of that. ALl you need to do is ignore it. Youre marking yourself as 100% gullible simply ebcause theyre scaring you.

 

Youre even offering to give them money for absolutely no reason whatsoever

[yaliyas]

But I feel like I still need to contact the solicitors (there's an email address on the letter) and I don't know what to write... How can I ask for more time? And if they give me more time, what should I be doing...

[renegadeimp]

Have you read ANY of the advice you have been given here?

I'm not being nasty but its as if youre ignoring the good advice here and then doing your own thing

[BankFodder]

Well you have done broadly the right thing. This is roughly what I would have advised. However, you should have waited for a response here for more precise advice.

 

I still would like to see the first and last pages of the letter please. I don't understand why this is a problem for you. I'm sure that you have a telephone with a camera on. I'm afraid that it is all a bit like pulling teeth.

 

Still, the letter is not bad. If I were you I would now put the email that you have written into a letter and send it to them with a cheque for the money. Keep copies of everything of course.

 

You could also include an apology with the letter and tell them that you appreciate the damage that the counterfeit industry can cause to businesses such as theirs and that this is not something that you would ever have done knowingly.

 

In terms of the solicitors, I'm afraid that these people have a reputation for precisely looking around the Internet, finding people who either deliberately or accidentally are dealing with infringing works and then sending them letters which demand large sums of money and which frighten the people because they don't know their rights.

 

I can tell you that in your circumstances – as long as you can convince a judge of your innocence in this matter, you would simply be ordered to pay over the money you had made out of the situation and I doubt whether there would be anything else.

 

The solicitors I'm afraid are acting in an opportunistic way. I suppose they make a lot of money out of it but I don't think it's very good for their reputation. This kind of activity is very similar to the kind of activity you find with private parking companies – which try to find people large amounts of money for a five minute overstay, people who are silly and to shoplift very small items which are then returned to the shop but are then faced with the so-called "civil recovery" companies which once again threaten them with court actions if they don't pay up certain amount of money et cetera.

 

I suggest that you write one letter to the solicitors – and no more. Tell them that you have received their letter. Thank them for alerting you to the fact that the fabric you have been dealing with maybe counterfeit. Tell them that you have contacted the designer of the fabric and you have sent them a cheque for the full amount of money that you have made.

 

Tell the solicitors that you have no intention of paying them any money and that you don't intend to contact them again. Tell them that if they want they can begin the pre-action protocol and that you expect that when a judge hears the story and understands what kind of company the solicitors are, the court will consider that the whole thing was an unnecessary action and was simply a bit of a money grab.

 

Don't contact solicitors again after that. Come here if you hear anything more.

[renegadeimp]

While i agree with BF, i wouldnt be sending ANY money whatsoever. At least not yet. Theres absolutely no reason to.

[BankFodder]

why are you doing any of that. ALl you need to do is ignore it. Youre marking yourself as 100% gullible simply ebcause theyre scaring you.

 

Youre even offering to give them money for absolutely no reason whatsoever

this is broadly right – I wouldn't ignore them completely. However, the way you're going about this gives people the impression that you are on the run.

 

 

But I feel like I still need to contact the solicitors (there's an email address on the letter) and I don't know what to write... How can I ask for more time? And if they give me more time, what should I be doing...

 

don't send them an email. Send them a letter. Please follow the advice you are given here – otherwise quite frankly don't bother to ask for it. It's just a waste of everybody's time. Make sure the letter is sent recorded delivery. Same for the letter and the cheque that you send to the designer.

[yaliyas]

I really appreciate all your help. As you can imagine I panicked and acted impulsively...

 

Here's the letter as requested.

pb letter.pdf

[renegadeimp]

Thanks for the letter. Its no different to the speculative claims we see all the time. Such as the solicitors that tried to go after people that downloaded pornographic films. Basically the entire letter boils down to " give us whatever we demand, even though it has no basis at all, and we wont provide any breakdown of the amount, or we will harass you further. "

 

To the uninformed, it looks professional and scary. To everyone else, it reads as a joke.

 

as i said before. In my opinion, theyre ambulance chasers. Nothing more.

[dx100uk]

Palmer Biggs are ambulance chasers.

nothing more

they get these firm to sign up to them to 'protect' their trademarks.

 

they regularly do this to people

 

Cath Kidston wont get a penny even if you do stupidly pay the PB fleecers.

 

do not pay them!!

 

I've ignored numerous PB letters EXACTLY like your for years.

 

read the letter CAREFULLY

it does NOT say WILL anything.

 

it even says that their client DOESNT EVEN KNOW they have found you doing this.

 

[well they have now as you've sent that email to them..

you are quite safe to ignore PB totally.

 

dx

[BazzaS]

Where an infringer did not know and had no reason to believe that copyright or design right subsisted in the work, the rights owner cannot claim damages (albeit there is still infringement). This protection is prescribed in s.97 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act of 1988, which provides:

97 Provisions as to damages in infringement action.E+W+S+N.I.

(1)Where in an action for infringement of copyright it is shown that at the time of the infringement the defendant did not know, and had no reason to believe, that copyright subsisted in the work to which the action relates, the plaintiff is not entitled to damages against him, but without prejudice to any other remedy.

(2)The court may in an action for infringement of copyright having regard to all the circumstances, and in particular to—

(a)the flagrancy of the infringement, and

(b)any benefit accruing to the defendant by reason of the infringement,

award such additional damages as the justice of the case may require.

Therefore, as a matter of law, the material set out in my posts are 100% correct in law, and yaliyas has a statutory defence against the claim made against her by Palmer Briggs on behalf of their client.

Yaliyas owes them nothing and cannot be sued for any monies.

Merry Christmas

Haunter

 

You’ve cited the law correctly.

You’ve just misapplied it.

 

If the OP sold the material as “Cath Kidston” they'd be hard pushed to claim they didn’t know Cath Kidston had intellectual property rights....

[Sidewinder]

Towntiger has a Facebook page seemingly still active?

 

https://www.facebook.com/TownTiger-Crafts-197155577423743/

[Guest]

If the OP sold the material as “Cath Kidston”........

yes, isn't their letter mainly re alleged trademark infringement. trade marks act.

[Haunter]

The sols letter is clearly saying "importing and selling" the goods, and goes on to say that no consent has been given for advertising the goods.

 

Yaliyas would not know that consent had not been given, therefore, although there is an infringement, the infringement is an innocent one, s.97 of CPD Act 1988 applies to her case.

 

I have not misapplied the law to the circumstances of this case.

 

Further, yaliyas is clearly not importing and selling the goods.

 

There is no case for yaliyas to answer.

 

Merry Christmas to all

 

Haunter

[BazzaS]

What if the allegation was “importing and / or selling”?

They clearly sold the items, even if they didn’t import them.

 

An action for breach of their intellectual property rights wouldn’t require importation.

[renegadeimp]

Ignore all the bluff.

Theyre ambulance chasers.

They wont do a single thing.

 

I mean come on. 80 pages of crap on initial contact?

Theyre trying to scare you into paying, and sadly it seems its working.

[yaliyas]

You're right renegadeimp, they're trying to scare me and it's working

[dx100uk]

They are totally powerless

They like any DCA are not bailiffs

 

Only CK could ever take you to court IF they ever wanted too

 

Don't get sc@mmed!!

 

Ignore PB totally