VCS/BW PCN Nov 2014 - St Andrews Retail Park -- found CCJ served to old address

[dx100uk]

why 4th jan? wheres that come from?

you haven't got a hearing date yet

 

get the CPR 31;14 runto the solicitors

 

[Your address]

.

 

[Their address [solicitors]

.

[Date]

.

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

.

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

.

CPR 31.14 Request

.

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

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I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

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Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

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1. the contract between [parking company name] and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name,.

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2.proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

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3.copies of the notice to driver, notice to keeper and any other correspondence from [insert Claimant Name] & [insert Solicitors Name} to the defendant that they intend to rely upon in court.

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You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience..

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Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

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Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

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In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

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If you are unable to comply with this request within 14 days and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

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You are reminded that as this case is yet to be allocated to a track, CPR31:14 does apply, a refusal to comply because you 'think' at this stage you dont have too will be used against you in any filed defence.

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Yours faithfully

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TYPE YOUR NAME DO NOT SIGN IT

[ericsbrother]

you MUST read things carefully and properly.

 

In all of this the devil is in the detail.

 

For example, the missing address on their signs,

the lack of saying who the creditor is on their NTK.

 

These are vital points that can be easily overlooked if you arent searching for them.

Please pay attention to what is written and dont just react to what you think is there.

Take your time to understand what exactly is being said.

 

With the CPR request you give them 14 days to respond as this standard time is plenty long enough but allows someone receiving a N1 claim form time to fire off the request and get a response before they have to submit a defence.

 

You could say 7 days but that could be seen as unreasonable or you could say 28 days but then you dont allow yourself enugh time ti use any information gleaned in your defence.

 

Do you understand why you are asking for this?

Although the claimants dont have to comply with the request in the small claims procedure they sure as hell will be asked about their authority on the day as this is the basis on which they make the claim . If they dont have the permissions they lack " locus standi" which means they have no right to make a claim and it automatically fails. It is clear that an agent signed on behalf of the landowner but is there an unbroken chain of permissions from the landowner?

 

Imagine you are selling your house and you tell the estate agent you dont want people viewing it parking on your drive.

The estate agent enforces this instruction by charging those that do park there £100.

 

Now that neither satisfies your instruction regarding no parking and hasnt created an assignment of right to the estate agent to charge anyone at all despite them claiming they are managing the selling of the property.

 

They have gone beyond their powers as there is no direct chain of agreement from the viewer who parked to you.

 

This is your argument in this case regarding permissions,

they need to show the agents have full authority to make such a contract with the parking co and it is rare for a landowner to do this at that would give away other rights they hold and take all of the risk

Edited December 13, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[Pagemaster]

The 4 Jan is the cut off date by which we have to contest the claim,

according to the judge at the set aside hearing

- which means we send in the CPR to BW Legal?

 

I have already completed this CPR form and filled in all her details.

I have not changed any of the wording and she has not signed it

- we have only printed her name on the CPR at the bottom,

as per your instructions dx

[dx100uk]

there is no claim you have not had a notice of allocation of any COURT DATE!!!!

 

just send the cpr

 

you remind me of a mate of mine

 

the clocks went back an hour

he spent 45 mins winding the clock hands forward by each hour via a tiny wheel 3,4,6,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1

rather than taking 2 mins to do it backwards once

[Pagemaster]

why didn't you check that before uploading it?

pcn number on numerous pages

picture rotated anywhichway but up!!

ive sorted it for you

 

The pictures of the pcn/ntk had the address and pcn and registration numbers removed already. I canupload it again if anyone wants to check.

 

there is no claim you have not had a notice of allocation of any COURT DATE!!!!

 

just send the cpr

 

you remind me of a mate of mine

 

the clocks went back an hour

he spent 45 mins winding the clock hands forward by each hour via a tiny wheel 3,4,6,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,1

rather than taking 2 mins to do it backwards once

 

I'm not your mate though....

 

@ericsbrother;5083932Thank you for your words eb.

 

I can see an address on the signs for VCS in the bottom right corner, is this the one you are talking about?

 

We will be sending the CPR off this week, probably Friday.

[dx100uk]

I'm not your mate though....

matters not to me

I just love to help anyone

you left the pcn no on the bottom of the red final reminder notice by the red pcn no box..

the pics were 90 right or left

probably due to the way the pdf was encoded by whatever method you are using.

[ericsbrother]

where is the address?

it says Vehicle control services and goves a phone number the a PO box number.

 

THIS IS NOT AN ADDRESS as required by both the POFA and civil procedure.

 

you must read things carefully not just take a stab at them and think that anything is true because you expect a certain answer.

 

You send the CPR as a matter of course and I dont know why you are arguing about a date.

If you have to send in an acknowledgement of service to the now set aside hearing then you do so but that has to be on the court form.

 

If you dont have that ( comes through the post) then get on to the court and get them to send it pronto.

generally though as the matter has been set aside the CLAIMANT must resubmit because there isnt a live case to consider as a result of that hearing and decision.

 

Again it appears as though you werent paying attention to the datail so now you have to spend more time asking again.

 

pay attention and if someone says something to you write it down

[Pagemaster]

Right, now I understand about the address n- it's not POFA compliant.

We were told at the set aside hearing that we had until 4 January 2018 to send our defence to BW legal and Hull County Court.

[DragonFly1967]

Have you got a copy of the court order for the set aside?

 

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could upload it (redacted of course), so that people can see exactly what it says.

[Pagemaster]

We haven't had a copy of the court order for the set aside yet. Do they automatically send one or do we have to request it?

[ericsbrother]

yes they send it but it wont hurt to ask for a copy especially as you think you have to act upon it.

 

It isnt a bad move to send a skeleton defence to BWL just to indicate that you do intend to fight this and that will give them the opportunity to withdraw the claim without suffering a big costs order.

 

so use what you intend to expand on later and post something up here so we can help. basically a series of bullet points because no hearing date and no WS from VCS to consider.

 

and get your own pictures of the signage.

Never rely on theirs, they may be different to 4 years ago so their evidence would unreliable at best and perjury at worst.

[Pagemaster]

UPDATE.

 

We posted the CPR form to BW Legal by recorded delivery.

 

I have started to compile our witness statement as follows:-

 

1. NTK is not POFA compliant

–There is no creditor information as required by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, paragraphs 5,6, 8 and 9.

 

They have not created a keeper liability.

That means they must identify the driver and state how they know it is the keeper.

This means they haven’t legally issued an invoice and therefore not created a keeper liability either. Excel v Mr B. C0DP33Q9 – VCS must clearly identify the driver.

 

2. Signage – too high, no valid address on the signs

- this is not an address as required by both the POFA and Civil Procedure.

Their sign with T&C's doesn’t mention who the contract is with

- they should give the full address details.

 

The part where it mentions the charge for breach of contract also includes charges that are not lawful? Which charges are not lawful?

 

We can reject the whole contract under S 62 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations. Also note that they don’t show any pictures of signage at the entrance.

 

3. Their contract with the landlord is signed by an agent

– does this agent have the authority to sign on their behalf and take people to court as well

– this is not normally what happens with an agent.

Is there an unbroken chain of permissions from the landowner?

 

NOTES -

1. If they quote Parking Eye v Beavis – Beavis admitted that he was the driver.

2. a full costs recovery order to be included in our defence submission.

 

Thanks eb.

 

We have our own pictures of the signage already.

 

I'll prepare a skeleton defence to send to BW Legal, and post it up here.

I've already put a draft on here for everyone to consider.

[ericsbrother]

you send the defence to COURT if it is actually asked for , copy to BWL then and only then.

 

your proposed defence needs a bit of twaeking,

for example you dont ask questions or invite them to provide evidence they have forgotten to add.

You say things like I believe they have no contract with the landowner because they have failed to produce one,

just an agreement with a third party ( dont even acknowledge the agent has any standing)

 

are your pictures differnt from theirs?

where are they?

have you done a map/plan of the site and indicated where things are and arent, for example lamp posts.

 

Beavis irrelevant unless you intend submitting the full transcript as part of your evidence as it is principally about a commercail consideration as to the amount claimed rather than just being a schedule of loss as per Dunlop v the New garage and Motor co 1915,

 

try and avoid getting into arguments about losses but do make yourself aware of the difference between a contractual sum and monies due as a result of a breach of contract and you will see why their unicorn food tax is unlawful star with reading the POFA and see what it says about billing there.

 

That is another point to challenge,

they do not stae why the money is owed ( brech or contract) in thier POC,

same as they dont say in what capacity they are suing the defendant as there is no keeper liability.

 

these are big points,

more importnat than the lack of screditor details in the scheme of things though that will halp you by adding weight to the argument about POC being rubbish and lack of cause for action.

[Pagemaster]

So, brief bullet points of our defence would be:-

 

1. There is no keeper liability

2. There is no contract with the landowner

3. They are not conforming to the POFA

[dx100uk]

pst..no need to keep hitting reply with quote!!

we don't need to see what the last person wrote again.

[ericsbrother]

1 and 2 are essentially the same I would go with

1 no locus standi due to no contract with landowner that assigns any rights to enter into contracts and make civil claims in their own name ( are these words looking familiar?)

2 no cause for action against defendant as no keeper liability

3 no contract formed by signage so no breach of contract can occur.

 

You can then add meat to these bones by quoting POFA, planning regs etc in your WS

[Pagemaster]

Ok, thank you eb.

 

So we now need to create a draft defence or should that be a witness statement?

 

Both need to go to BW Legal and Hull County Court.

[ericsbrother]

Have you asked the court about who has to submit what yet?

 

If VCS dont bother to resubmit them you wont be doing anything,

if they have to write new POC's then they will have to be served on you.

If both sides are told to say what they are going to rely on then you send the skeleton argument to court and BWL.

 

WHEN you are ordered by the court to exchange witness statements and all of the other evidence you intend to rely on you do that.

This was spelt out about 10 pages ago on this thread.

 

Currently we dont have the foggiest idea what you are required to do because you havent asked the court for clarification of what was said at the set aside and your confusion over what was going to happen at that hearing in your posts beforehand means that we cant take what you say as being accurate

hence the request that you ask them again

 

when you do ask you write it down as they tell you so there is less chance of not understanding or missing something.

[Pagemaster]

I managed to get someone to answer the phone at Hull County Court after a few attempts and they told me that the computer records hadn't been updated since 17 November 2017 (before our set aside was granted on 5 December 2017).

 

Eventually they rang me back to say that our full defence needs to be sent to BW Legal and the Hull County Court by the 5 January 2018. I told her that we had sent the CPR in as well.

 

So we need the full defence sorting out next.

 

Believe it or not we are still trying to sort out the mortgage which is still taking up a lot of our time after 2 years of filling forms in, so don't be surprised if we can't get the things done that are needed here, quick enough.

[ericsbrother]

the mortgage is another matter that can be addressed afterwards if necessary.

 

The CPR request is of no business to the court schedule so again you arent applying the advice you are given and allowing yourself to be sidetracked.

 

So, get working on your WS and list of other documents you wish to rely on You have the 3 main points to work around so you start with them and where relevat refer to things like the POFA ( make a copy of that to take with you on the day) other persuasive cases ( copies to court and BWL) etc. You rubbish their claim at each point so it is clear you dont agree with any of the bits that follow if the first argument fails.

Edited December 20, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[Pagemaster]

Thank you for your help again EB.

 

The mortgage work has been running concurrently with the work I have had to do for the parking CCJ since January 2017. The mortgage work started in January 2016.

 

Since January 2017 , when I first asked for help here we have had 3 different brokers send mortgage applications in for us. The first did no work at all and the second sent our application to Together. Eventually, after initially being told that the application would go through without any hitches, they gave up trying after 5 months, because they had 'spent too much time on it already'. They also told us that we couldn't afford it.

 

The third broker applied to the same lender (Together) and we got a mortgage offer just in time to be able to buy the property. The offer was due to expire last Friday but our solicitor needed more time to complete so we are now hoping to complete this Friday. We have already had 2 last minute problems, one of which we have finally resolved and the other may be resolved today hopefully

 

This is not an excuse for not being able to read hundreds of threads, it is just a fact.

 

This means I don't have much time to complete the WS before Christmas as I am still trying to get everything ready for the completion. I will complete the WS though, thanks to all the help I have received here.

[ericsbrother]

as said, you cant change this because you have a CCJ.

That has now gone so you start again with the mortgage applications and have a go at the credit reference agencies if they havent cleared your files in a timely manner ( a month is enough) but do not tie it to you battle with VCS, it will gain you nothing by doing so.

 

Post up your WS so we can suggest edits.

 

As we weretn there and dont know everything we cant write ti for you but can correct and suggest.

Edited December 20, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[Pagemaster]

I will post the WS as soon as I can.

 

As I said, we're waiting for the sale completion this Friday, so I have to concentrate on that at the moment. We still have one outstanding issue which could stop the sale.

[ericsbrother]

Ok, many people have a couple of days off between christmas and new year. You know what you will be doing

[Pagemaster]

We received two forms from the Hull County Court today, a Certificate of Satisfaction or Cancellation of Judgement Debt and a Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track (Hearing).

 

The Small Claims Track notification confirms the set aside and the defendant is to file and serve defence by 5th January 2018.

 

It also states:-

 

"Unless the claimant does by 4pm on the 8 January 2018 pay to the court the trial fee of £25 or file a properly completed application (ie one which provides all the required information in the manner requested) for help with fees, then the claim will be struck out with effect from 8 January 2018 without further order and, unless the court orders otherwise, you will also be liable for the costs which the defendant has incurred."

 

The hearing of the claim will take place on the 12 February 2018.

 

Our property purchase didn't complete today (again), so I now have some time to prepare the WS.