Employment Tribunal Hearing grounds of discrimination ( pregnancy )

[andydub64]

I have just received a reply from the Respondents solicitor who I politely asked if they could estimate a date when his client was going to pay my daughters compensation and quoted ET rule 66 is now in place.

 

He is adamant that his client has 42 days from the receipt of the Tribunals judgement as to appeal.

 

As his client and the legal representative were giving reasons for judgement at the conclusion of the trial which was a unanimous decision by the judge and panel and subsequent breaches and award amounts.

 

This is the same solicitor who was re creating the rules of the court before trial, and it would appear that he is doing it after the trial.

 

I have advised him that giving he told the Court that they were considering a full bundle hearing, which was not the case and further stated agreed which they had not been, I would say that this could be a case of perjury.

 

Any advise would as always be appreciated.

[steampowered]

Yes, his client does have 42 days from receipt of the judgment to appeal. That doesn't affect the 14 day time for payment though.

 

In practice you could avoid poking the bear and just wait for the 42 day period to expire. You could in theory go to county court in the meantime to enforce the award but that process won't be finished before the 42 days is up.

 

Not sure I have enough background to understand what is meant by 'full bundle hearing here' and I don't understand why you referred to this being a case of perjury. It is usually best to steer away from making broadbrush allegations like accusing people of perjury to be honest; just focus on the actual issues in hand.

[andydub64]

Good Evening Steampowered,

 

The reasons made by the Judge were giving orally.

 

Could it be that the Respondents are merely being objective for the sake of being objective, its not for me to state whether there are grounds for an appeal the judge and the panel were fairly critical of the whole case and how it was being handled.

 

The fact remains that the trial should not have proceeded but it did and the other side are now questioning a judgement that was made despite the Respondent and his representative not only concealing evidence, misrepresenting facts but also ignoring orders and directions before that judgement was reached.

 

I will now make an application against the Respondents legal representives based on their unreasonable before the trial which was considered merited for the judge to strike out the claim on the eve of trial.

[steampowered]

If the other side want to appeal, that is their right. You can't stop them. If the appeal does not have merit, it will be rejected.

 

What application are you wanting to make against the Respondent's legal representative, exactly?

[andydub64]

A wasted cost order.

 

Prior to the trial I would have assumed that the legal representative of the Respondents were obliged to follow procedures and directions.

[andydub64]

The legal representative for the other side is now under an investigation as the matter and in the manner he acted was not to act nor influence the ends of justice, but to gain an advantage, which is now being considered for a criminal prosecution on the grounds of perverting the course of justice, the police on the facts giving are now investigating this matter.

 

If someone is motivated and prepared to take the risks, which in this case is fairly evident, in my opinion, to blatantly and to continue to breach rules and directions, there is no immunity, regardless of the qualifications that this particular solicitor felt was an advantage which giving judgement and the fact that his actions are now being questioned, would now now suggest otherwise.

[steampowered]

People miss court and tribunal deadlines all the time. Its not great but that's life. The facts you have described come nowhere near perverting the course of justice.

 

The other point to note is that the solicitor would have needed instructions and documents from his client to do anything. You don't know what discussions were going on between the solicitor and the employer behind the scenes.

 

I am struggling to see a reason for a criminal investigation here and a bit mystified as to why the police are involved. You obviously feel that you have been wronged, but people missing deadlines is par for the course and not of the ordinary. There are well established remedies for serious failure to meet deadlines which deal with the issue - seeking further orders from the tribunal, delaying the trial date and/or seeking costs.

 

If I were you, I would just stick to seeking a preparation costs order from the employer. I think you will struggle to get a wasted costs order to be perfectly honest, and certainly I think you will struggle to achieve anything more than that.

[andydub64]

Whilst I can appreciate that deadlines are missed, there were a series of those events during the whole of this litigation and that would include misrepresenting the court that an agreed full trial bundle was to be considered during the actual trial, that was not the case, the complete opposite which as a result led to the Court suspending during trial for the evidence that was delubrately concealed being considered which proved my daughters case in the end.

 

I would assume missing the occasional order which would include a full trial bundle as opposed to concealing evidence are two separate issues.

 

Add to that, that the solicitor was made aware of the problem's but again turned a blind eye would also suggest that he was not motivated as to secure the ends of justice.

 

He knew what he was doing, its not breaching most of the order's and directions that are now issue, there now is a probable reason, as this would also enable him to conceal evidence which when considered, ultimately proved my daughters case.

 

You cannot have a system which enables one individual to decide what evidence should or should not be adjudged, this case would demonstrate that could be achieved and is therefore not only morally wrong but also an illegal way to act during proceedings.

 

The police have been giving the same facts and they are minded to investigate and have now produced a crime reference number based on what they know.

[donarebun]

Hi Andydub64,

 

I must first state that I'm pleased with you since you fought hard for your daughter's right and most importantly you won.

 

She must be extremely pleased with you and any parent would envy you since you have proved that you are truly a Superhero.

 

I believe the Lawyer was grossly incompetent but also he did try a few "tricks".

 

I also believe it would be very harsh for him to go to jail and loss his source of income because he tried a few "tricks".

 

The system allowed him and allows a lot of lawyers do same,

 

I believe the best course of action is for you to campaign to change/revamp the system rather than pick on a particular person.

 

Once again well done

[andydub64]

From my limited experience it is clear that any pregnant women trying to establish discrimination against a employer is near on impossible and in particular, the costs involved which evidently gives the employer not a lot of deterrent to unfairly dismiss with that in mind.

 

The problem that I have is that once we were giving the opportunity to establish my daughter like others put in the same position, had maternity rights, he deliberately withheld evidence knowing full well what he was trying to achieve.

 

Like her boss, his solicitor was not concerned about how their actions and the loss of income would affect her, rules are there for a reason, and particularly to insure the legal rights of an individual are allowed.

 

I do not accept that this was par to the course and it goes on, that may well be the case, but I would assume that once you start concealing evidence after saying it had been agreed and within the scope of informing the Court they were considering a full trial bundle which was not the case, there lies the difference as to a mistake and a misrepresentation, because that is the difference I would have assumed in this particular case.

[BazzaS]

From my limited experience it is clear that any pregnant women trying to establish discrimination against a employer is near on impossible and in particular, the costs involved which evidently gives the employer not a lot of deterrent to unfairly dismiss with that in mind.

 

The problem that I have is that once we were giving the opportunity to establish my daughter like others put in the same position, had maternity rights, he deliberately withheld evidence knowing full well what he was trying to achieve.

 

Like her boss, his solicitor was not concerned about how their actions and the loss of income would affect her, rules are there for a reason, and particularly to insure the legal rights of an individual are allowed.

 

I do not accept that this was par to the course and it goes on, that may well be the case, but I would assume that once you start concealing evidence after saying it had been agreed and within the scope of informing the Court they were considering a full trial bundle which was not the case, there lies the difference as to a mistake and a misrepresentation, because that is the difference I would have assumed in this particular case.

 

I'm with steampowered as far as:

How do you know it was the other side's legal rep. and not the respondent at fault? It may have been they were doing all they could but had a 'flaky' client : in which case going after the legal rep. will be wasted effort,

 

I too am lost as to what you mean by "they were considering a full trial bundle"?

That would be usual if the case was heading for a hearing rather than a pre-hearing settlement

[steampowered]

OK, do let us know how you get on.

 

If you want to ask for costs, remember to get your application in ASAP and before the deadline. That deadline won't be extended.

[andydub64]

On the eve of the trial when the Court was going to strike the respondents claim out because of no compliance as I had raised issue about the trial bundle, the legal representative stated that it was because of him why the orders and directions had not been followed and no mention of his client.

So for him to start pointing the finger at his client as a means of a defence after already blaming himself which allowed the trial to proceed the next day would be a very difficult one for the legal representative to now place a defence upon.

 

That immunity if there was such was lost when he successfully argued reasons for the case to proceed which made ni mention of his client, he used his absence for various reasons for not comp lying which would include my objections that the trial bundle was incomplete and missing material that would and did prove the case.

[steampowered]

There are two further points you should be aware of before you go down this road.

 

First point to note is that if you successfully obtained a wasted costs order against the legal representative, that would probably be limited to the additional costs incurred as a result of the representative's bad conduct. The logic is that legal representatives are not responsible for the whole litigation, they are only responsible for the consequences of their particular screw-up or bad conduct. You would't normally get wasted costs for time spent running the case generally.

 

For example, if you spent a total of 50 hours on the case as a whole, but you would have spent 40 hours if the legal representative behaved properly, then you would be awarded 10 hours if successful in obtaining a wasted costs order. See below Rule 80 from the ET rules and my emphasis in bold:

A Tribunal may make a wasted costs order against a representative in favour of any party (“the receiving party”) where that party has incurred costs— (a) as a result of any improper, unreasonable or negligent act or omission on the part of the representative; or (b) which, in the light of any such act or omission occurring after they were incurred, the Tribunal considers it unreasonable to expect the receiving party to pay

 

On the other hand, if you obtained a preparation time costs order against the respondent, that would usually cover all time spent on the whole case - in the example given above, you might get the full 50 hours. Do note that a preparation time costs order can be made on the basis of unreasonable behaviour by the respondent OR by the respondent's representative, so you are covered from the perspective of using the legal representative's bad conduct as a reason for asking for a preparation time costs order (read rule 75).

 

Second point to note is that you are much more likely to have to go back to the tribunal for another physical hearing if you ask for a wasted costs order against the representative. If you go for a more standard preparation time costs order against the respondent there is a much better chance of the tribunal dealing with it on paper (although it is possible that a hearing could be required either way).

 

I fully understand why you are keen on the wasted costs idea but, personally, I would just go for the preparation time costs order, and leave the respondent/legal representative to have a fight between themselves about the consequences of that if they want.

[andydub64]

Good Morning Steampowered,

 

I have already made an application for costs based on preparation as opposed to a wasted cost order, sent early last week.

 

I have indicated that I would respectfully ask the Court to consider a claim for the extra hours allotted giving how the respondent conducted the case.

 

As of today I have not been told if my application has been considered.

 

And I have not received any notification from the respondents if they are going to pay the order, their representative is refusing to communicate stating that his clients are waiting for the reasons of judgement.

[steampowered]

Do you actually have the tribunal order requiring payment of money?

 

I imagine the respondent has requested written reasons (which he is entitled to request) and wants to wait for the written reasons before doing anything in order to see whether he might have grounds for appeal.

[andydub64]

The decision was made orally as were the awards.

 

From what I can recall, the legal representative did ask the judge for written reasons at the conclusion of the case.

 

Can enforcement proceedings be made 14 days after judgment pending any right of considering an appeal?

[andydub64]

The strike out application which the Court was considering under its own motion and with our application for an unless order.

 

The Respondent in receiving the threat of the Court did not give the Claimant any indication nor the reasons for not striking out the claim prior to this application.

 

It is my understanding that all correspondence which would include submitting the reasons for not striking out would have to be giving not only to the court but also to the other party, pre any decision based on what was being pleaded?

[steampowered]

The time for payment is 14 days from the date of judgment or order.

 

An oral verdict is not a judgment. It sounds like you don't have the judgment or order yet. You should get it very soon and follow up with the Tribunal if unsure.

 

Note the following rule:

61.—(1) Where there is a hearing the Tribunal may either announce its decision in relation to any issue at the hearing or reserve it to be sent to the parties as soon as practicable in writing.

(2) If the decision is announced at the hearing, a written record (in the form of a judgment if appropriate) shall be provided to the parties (and, where the proceedings were referred to the Tribunal by a court, to that court) as soon as practicable. (Decisions concerned only with the conduct of a hearing need not be identified in the record of that hearing unless a party requests that a specific decision is so recorded.)

(3) The written record shall be signed by the Employment Judge.

[andydub64]

Thanks for that Steampowered,

 

So its just a case of waiting for the verdict being written on the form of a judgment from the Court.

 

Any information on the respondents objection to the claim being struck out with the reasons not being disclosed to the other side would be appreciated, rule 30(2)

[steampowered]

Normal practice would be to copy all correspondence to the other side. As I read Rule 30(2) though, it only seems to actually require a copy of the application itself to be copied to the other side and does not also cover objections.

[andydub64]

The judge ordered that the Respondent either write or request a hearing for them to give reason/s why the response should not be struck out, the reasons and what were relied upon were not giving to the Claimant before the judge allowed the trial to go ahead the next day.

[andydub64]

14 days for payment has now expired, am I to assume that my daughter will have to wait for the judgment from the Court before alternative means of how to recover are considered, any advice as always, would be greatly appreciated.

[steampowered]

14 days for payment has now expired, am I to assume that my daughter will have to wait for the judgment from the Court before alternative means of how to recover are considered, any advice as always, would be greatly appreciated.

The time for payment is 14 days from the date of the judgment/order, not from the date of the hearing. So yes, you need to wait for the tribunal's order.

[andydub64]

Thanks for that Steampowered.

 

Can my daughter request the judgment or is it upto the Tribunal when this is giving?