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    • Wrongly convicted Horizon victims in Scotland to be exonerated NEWS.STV.TV Victims who faced wrongful convictions are to be exonerated the day after Royal Assent is granted.  
    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
    • so return of goods order etc etc read upload  scan pages to jpg, redact in mspaint. the convert to and merge to one mass PDF  read upload and use the online listed sites for all 3 stages. do you want to keep the car? i will guess this was a manual paper claimform direct from the co.court or was it org sent from salford bulk processing and has just got reaq ssigned?      
    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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1st credit claimform - LLOyds card - Defended, DQ/Mediation help


69Eyes
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Where are the terms and conditions ?

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well page one is an application form , no heading as a credit agreement

 

the recon agreement contains the wrong name and address (see carey v hsbc)

 

so does not satisfy even a s78 request imo

 

plus no t &cs at closure

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FWIW, on the application form, it says at the top (though it's faded out in the middle) something like: "If your application is accepted by our signature below and we send you a card, then this will form the agreement btween you, the principal card holder and Lloyds TSB Bank PLC."

 

The T&Cs were included after the application form. They looked like they were taken from the same document, but I don't believe they are because of the address issue.

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trust them to respond to the cca request in time

re default notice; you can still get them to show that one was issued (not 'would have'), and was mostly compliant. loyds comms logs will show whether a def notice was issued.

also, any 'recon' has to be accurate (kotecha v phoenix case), and whether or not it wld satisfy a matter prior to april 07.

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[removed] How come I have to spend days collating info and submit it all 14 days in advance

... then they pull it all out of a hat in the last 5 days?

Despite me requesting it for years!

 

 

So should I mention all these points at the court hearing?

It's on Tuesday, so I guess it's too late to sumbit anything else to the court by post.

I have no idea what to expect, how I should be presenting my argument or anything.

 

And if the court rule in their favour, I'm worried I'll get CCJ'ed

Edited by dx100uk
behave - dx
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yes, they are points to mention, and anything else as mentioned.

they say in their statement that a def notice was served, can they show it. show the logs. a def notice, if applicable, is a statutory requirement under section 87 con credit act. and that if deemed served, to show that it was compliant according to the def notice regs.

 

if it goes against, then you wld have a judgment against. but, that can be cleared if paid in full within 28 days.

up to you whether you want to try and see it out, or try negotiate/settle something before, or at the court doors.

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Thanks for all your input. I have collated all the points you've raised, researched around them, and tried to make sense of it all.

 

 

Below are the points I am thinking to raise during the hearing - but I'm not sure how strong a case I've got...

 

Default Notice

 

They should be able to show me that a DN was issued from their logs. As of yet they have only stated that one 'would have' been issued.

 

If I could say with certainty that one had NOT been issued, I expect that would be a valid defence. However I cannot. The truth is that I just can't remember.

 

 

No T&C at Closure

 

Someone mentioned that there were "no T&C at closure". Does this refer to the part of the application that is signed? Becuase upon close inpsection there is a reference to "terms overleaf and the full Conditions in the Customer Copy". Or have I misunderstood?

 

 

Accuracy of Terms and Conditions

 

The address they have on the TC is 10 years too late! So they're clearly not the actual document from 2001. This might also indicate that it's not an accurate recon. However, it COULD be - I have no way of knowing.

 

If that were brought to their attention, wouldn't they just change the address and say "now it's accurate"?

 

 

Carey v HSBC and Phoenix v Kotecha

 

A couple of folks have referred to Carey v HSBC. As I understand it, the take-away from this is

"HHJ Waksman QC made it clear that the creditor does not need the original agreement to produce a true copy, he can rely on records held in computers and other sources to produce a true copy of the agreement, the only caveat is that the copy must be honest and accurate".

Similarly, the Phoenix v Kotecha case concluded that the agreement provided was unenforcable becuase

 

the interest rates on the agreement provided did not match those on the application, and interest rates were deemed to be a "term of central importance" to an agreement. Therefore it was demonstrated not to be an accurate reconstruction.

Other than the erronous address, is there any way to demonstrate the honesty / accuracy of the T&Cs I've been provided with?
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I cut it down a bit because it is rather wordy:

 

Now when the original signed application form / agreement is sent to the debtor and there are part terms or no terms, then technically the agreement could be unenforceable .... for example the lender sends a set of terms purporting to be from 1998 with a registered address from 2001. The problem with those sections of the Consumer Credit Act is that they are suspensory and can come back to bite you, why? Because the creditor can remedy the s77,78 or 79 breach even on the day of the trial. As much as i find that galling, it is true sadly as can be seen in Harrison v Link Financial Limited. Link via MBNA had made numerous failed attempts to comply with the relevant provisions yet they had botched it up over and over, it was pretty spectacular really, it was like "heres a true copy, no heres a true copy, no we got that wrong too but honest this one is really the right one".
Edited by Andyorch
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you seem to have the main issues in hand.

re carey, there is more to it, re proper execution of an agreement, not necessarily in favour of the cred.

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From Carey

 

The copy of the agreement must contain the name and address of the borrower as it was at the time it was signed. The creditor can supply the name and address from whatever source it has for those details. It does not have to take them from the executed agreement itself. If the agreement had been subsequently varied by the lender then the lender has to supply a copy of the original agreement as well as the varied terms.

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Thank you.

 

If I argued that the agreement was unenforcable because the address on the terms is incorrect, is it not likely that they would re-submit the T&C with the address corrected?

 

There's an outside chance that they might not have those details, but I wouldn't bet on it.

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they cant just copy, cut and paste stuff they have from a filing cabinet to make them look correct!

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I wish you were my solicitor! I'm not confident that I'll be able to come out with the right comments / points when I'm put on the spot.

 

So when I'm in with the judge, would I say something like this?

 

"Sir, I question the accuracy of these T&C because they contain an address that was not in use until 2010"

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You would state that the t he recon could not possibly be a true copy of any agreement that you signed as required by s78(1) cca1974

due to the address on the recon being one

that you lived at from 2010

 

Up until the time of judgment they are able to remedy

but you would point out that they have already had

x months/years to get their house in order as regards paperwork

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Thank you, that's very helpful.

 

With regard to the application form... it does appear to be my signature on there. Is that relevant if the T&Cs are not a true copy?

 

I'm wondering what kind of questions I will be asked? And should I be giving as much info as possible? Or as little?

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69Eyes...I think it may be prudent to stop thinking too deep at all the possible scenarios at this stage...your initial defence will be vague in response to the claimants vague particulars initially....its only once you test them and they decide to respond/proceed with the claim would all the above come into play.

 

Relax and enjoy your weekend.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Ta :) Yeah TBH I did think that the court hearing would be a make or break moment. And been pretty worried since they sent the docs through at the last minute (which was unexpected to say the least).

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they sometimes do that (send things last minute) unfortunately.

what i meant before if re a judgment is that if it is paid within 28 days then it wont appear as a judgment record. what roughly is the value of the claim again.

your defence was a bit vague, but you mentioned the agreement requirements in it, so its all related to be considered by the J if needs be.

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It's £3k+ so unfortunately there's no way I'd be able to pay that within 28 days. My main defence was - despite repeated requests - they had never provided me with a copy of the agreement. But now they have (albeit with a ropey recon of the T&C).

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