What can happen to bundles at the end of a hearing in the county court

[Ganymede]

The Court don't retain any bundles, including the judge's copy, as they simply don't have the space.

[resources]

1.

If the judge orders at the end of the hearing the destruction of the judge’s bundle how can the parties ask to be given it at the end of the hearing?Hence the solution could be that the judge does not have any right to order the destruction of bundle at the end of the hearing

2.

If the parties forget to ask for the judge’s bundle at the end of the hearing and it is transferred to the office of the court. It should take sometimes for the court to destroy it. Do you know any good reason why the court will refuse to return the judge’s bundle if a party come back to the court asking for it before it is destroyed. To the contrary I think that the court will be very happy to return the bundle to the party because it saves it the work of destroying it.

[Ganymede]

You've been given the answer already.

 

Unless you take the all bundles with you when you walk out of Court after the hearing has finished any that are left behind can and will be destroyed without any notice.

[resources]

If the judge put the bundle aside and says that it will be destroyed should the parties argue with judge and tell him that it should not be destroyed because they want it back. Or should the judge knows the law and not order the bundle to be destroyed at the first place.

Edited June 6, 2015 by citizenB

[Ganymede]

Did this happen to you? Did you ask for your bundle back and he refuse?

[resources]

I did not ask for it because I thought that I was not entitled to be give my bundle back because the judge said that it will be destroyed

[Ganymede]

It was a little protracted but we got there in the end.

 

The bundles have been destroyed because you didn't ask for them back. Nothing you can do about it now.

[resources]

1.

I would like to know if witness statements filed separately (not in a bundle) before a pre- hearing starts form parts also of ‘a bundle’

and could be destroyed at the same time as ‘the bundle’ or should be left in the court file at the end of the pre-hearing

 

This question is important because it is necessary to know if the court has the right to destroyed these witness statements

 

2.

I think that parties are obliged to file a bundle only for a trial but not for a pre-hearing. Hence a party can decide to file a bundle for a pre-hearing or decide to file one or more separate witness statements. Hence the question is to know if the county court can destroy the bundle but not the witness statements

 

3.

The important point is that PD39A para 7 says that the parties can ask to be given ‘the exhibits’ at the end of a trial but does not make any reference to bundles or witness statements. Does this means that the exhibits can be given back to the party but that the witness statements should remain in the court file.

 

4.

Witness statements are evidence verified by a statement of true so I would like to know if for this reason they should remain in the court file and not be destroyed at the end of a pre-hearing

 

5.

Practice Direction 32 about evidence makes a difference between exhibits, bundles, and witness statements does this mean that some of these 3 categories of documents could be destroyed at the end of a pre- hearing but others of these 3 categories of documents should remain in the court file

[resources]

I have to inform you that this thread is a different thread that my previous thread which dealt with ‘trial bundles’ because this new thread deals with ‘witness statements’ which is different matter because ‘witness statements’ are piece of evidence which should remain in the court file

[citizenB]

Please tell me you are not now going to ask if the different categories of documents were to be disposed of under the Judges orders ?

 

It seems to me that the Judge has made a decision - you did not question it at the time and the "bundle" which includes everything has been destroyed.

 

I think you are going round in circles and you are not going to obtain a different response.

[AndyOrch]

I have to inform you that this thread is a different thread that my previous thread which dealt with ‘trial bundles’ because this new thread deals with ‘witness statements’ which is different matter because ‘witness statements’ are piece of evidence which should remain in the court file

 

And also in your own files...I assume they did standard disclosure (N265) and also provided a bundle ...so you should already have copies of everything ....irrespective of what the court did with their copies?

[resources]

You have to do the difference with copies of witness statements that parties can choose to put in their trial bundle and the original witness statements that are filed by the parties during the processing of the claim which should remain in the court file because they are piece of evidence

A judge can by mistake or intentionally put in the bundle that he orders to be destroyed the original witness statement which should remains in the court file

I suppose that the court is not going to destroy the claim form, the particulars of claim or the defence so why to destroy the witness statement. It is the point that I try to make.

 

Moreover if the court destroys the witness statement if an appeal is made when the appeal judge will examine the appeal on papers the witness statement will not be in the file. The important point is that a party can replace in the court file documents destroyed only if it is aware that they have been destroyed

[AndyOrch]

Seems rather intense this thread for a general question on retention of bundles ...as stated above both parties will already have copies of everything the court has been furnished with ...therefore we appear to be going around in circles.......is this for a thesis ?

[resources]

A witness statement is a piece of evidence specially the original one. Hence we could be worried if a judge or a court’s officer can pick and chose which piece of evidence could be kept in the file and which will be destroyed without informing the parties

 

 

It is the destruction of witness statements i.e. of pieces of evidence following the instruction of a judge without informing the parties

 

 

I would like to prove that the judge was wrong to order the destruction of my witness statements and that the court's officer was wrong to destroy them because this will help my case for judicial review for the reason that the appeal judge did not have these documents in hand when he considered my appeal on paper. And I was not able to replace them because I was not aware that they were destroyed. Hence the processing of my claim has been corrupted and frustrated what should give right to judicial review the refusal of the appeal judge to grant me permission to appeal

 

 

It is possible that the defendant would have also objected to the destruction of my witness statements which as all pieces of evidence can also maybe contains evidence in his favour

Edited June 6, 2015 by honeybee13
Font size hurts your eyes.

[honeybee13]

I've edited the post above to a font size that doesn't hurt your eyes.

 

HB

[Ganymede]

You should have kept a copy of your witness statement. Anything in the ring binders that were provided to the Court go in the bin at the end.

 

If you filed your witness statement separately in advance of the bundles then the Court should still have a copy on the Court file.

[resources]

I have some difficulties in controlling the font size sometimes it is too small and other times it is too big

As I explained at the beginning of this thread I saw at the end of the hearing the judge putting by mistake or intentionally documents from the court file in the trial bundle of the defendant that he ordered to be destroyed. As a consequence my witness statements, the claim form, the particulars of claim and the defence were destroyed at the same time as the trial bundle of the defendant and are missing from the court file.

 

Hence the appeal judge did not have these documents in hand when he examined my appeal on papers. It is why I want to use this to judicial review his decision to refuse me permission to appeal on papers because I consider that the processing of my claim was corrupted and frustrated.

 

Moreover the appeal judge did not have also a copy of the transcript of the hearing when he examined my appeal on papers

 

Hence I would like to know which laws, statues or civil procedures have been broken

Edited June 7, 2015 by honeybee13
Font size

[honeybee13]

Hello resources.

 

You can control the font size if you're copying and pasting if you go into the edit facility and select the font size option. This can be done after you've posted something that's hard to read.

 

HB

[SabreSheep]

Not sure you are looking at the right target here.

 

Your "review" should not be about changing the result of your appeal. That judge acted with what he had

[dx100uk]

use notepad not word.

 

 

dx

[resources]

If the appeal judge did not have all documents in hands it is because the processing of my claim was corrupted and frustrated by the illegal destruction of most of the documents in the court file what should give me the right to judicial review

 

Moreover the appeal judge when he noticed that the claim form, the particulars of claim and the defence were missing and also that he does not have the transcript he should have waiting before taking his decision and required that all missing documents are replaced

[AndyOrch]

But you could should have resubmitted all necessary evidence again with your appeal application from your own files and bundles.....because you would have copied and retained all evidence for future reference.....wouldn't you...everyone else does. ?????

[Ganymede]

If the appeal judge did not have all documents in hands it is because the processing of my claim was corrupted and frustrated by the illegal destruction of most of the documents in the court file what should give me the right to judicial review

 

Moreover the appeal judge when he noticed that the claim form, the particulars of claim and the defence were missing and also that he does not have the transcript he should have waiting before taking his decision and required that all missing documents are replaced

 

On what grounds did you appeal?

 

You don't need the original claim form etc. Copies will do.

 

Also it is your responsibility to get a copy of the transcript and include it in your appeal. There is usually a fee to do this.

[resources]

According to Practice Direction Practice direction 81 para 10.2 in a county court only a circuit judge can issue a suspended committal order for disobedience if a debtor fails to provide all requested information during a hearing for questioning. However this committal order is suspended if the debtor finally brings all the requested documents to a second hearing for questioning.

 

 

In the order it is stated if the debtor does not do so he will be arrested and be brought before a judge to consider whether the committal order should be discharged. However the order does not say if the judge before whom he will be brought should be a circuit judge or could be a district judge

 

 

Also if instead of being brought before a judge a debtor who fails for a second time to bring the requested financial information during a second hearing for questioning is simply ordered to file a list of documents at a specified date without another hearing, I would like to know if the judge who will examine the documents that the debtor will file and decide whether or not they are compliant and whether or not the committal order could be discharged should be in this case also a circuit judge or it could be a district judge

 

 

The question can arise if for example there not anymore a circuit judge in a county court and instead of transferring the file to another county court where there is a circuit judge the court prefers because it is simpler not to transfer the file to another county court and put it before a district judge

 

 

We can think that if only a circuit judge can issue a suspended committal order for disobedience only a circuit judge can discharge it because a district judge is lower than a circuit judge. I would like to know if I am right and which statute or civil procedure rules deal with this issue?

 

 

The issue is to know if there is not anymore a circuit judge in a county court if the file about the suspended committal order for disobedience should be transferred to another county court where there is a circuit judge so that it is put before a circuit judge who will decide if the committal order should be discharged or not or the file should be put before a district judge of the same county court who will decide whether or not he has authority to discharge the committal order