Funeral disaster

[*RainbowTears*]

Shelley. Can I offer some words that I genuinely hope will draw this to a close for you. I speak as someone who has had two young family members murdered but also as someone who used to work in the industry many years ago.

 

I am confident that the very vast majority of funeral directors do actually do a great job, if that is the right choice of words. It is a money making business, yes. But I never went into it for the money. It is a genuinely caring profession at peoples most vulnerable and traumatic times. Needless to say, things can and sometimes do go wrong.

 

When you go say your final goodbyes, it is often a devastating experience as the finality of it hits hard. The loved one will never look as you hoped, expected or indeed would want. You are used so seeing them sleeping, but this is different. No movement, no warmth. Post mortem lividity (redness) is very common. It will give the person a different look. The muscles are completely relaxed unlike sleeping, so they will have a kind of face lift appearance due to gravity. They will be colder than you thought, often little above freezing. This is because unlike what we may want to imagine, deceased persons need to be kept very cool indeed. Even after 'treatment' or embalming.

 

I do not know the actual circumstances of course and have no reason to doubt what you are saying. It is a horrible time and experience for you. But I would ask you to consider this. As horrible as that day was for you and as awful a memory as it is, can you find a way to conjure up right now a smiling image of him? An image of him in better days, on a great day when you both were full of youth and magic? Birds singing, sun shining. Just a perfect moment. Can you do that? Can you now hear him saying something? What would he tell you to do about this? I am sure he would tell you it is OK and that he would not want you upset or distressed like this. He would put a loving hand on your shoulder, smile and say 'don't let it upset you'. Am I right?

 

This is the most difficult thing to say, but can you find a way to remember him in better days. He has gone, yes. But can you let that one moment pass and grab hold of all the wonderful memories again. The laughter, the fun, the good times? I am absolutely sure that is what he would want you to do.

 

I genuinely hope you take this as a friend offering a shoulder and heartfelt best wishes. What happened is not nice, but it is one moment in a million others that were nice. Don't let that one moment hold you back any longer. Move forward with great memories knowing a wonderful man was there and would not want you to be upset any longer.

 

Kindest wishes and thoughts.

 

 

RM This to me, has to be one of the most sincerest & deeply thought out posts I've read on CAG.

 

Indeed, it does for me, bring hope that Shelley will read your words & find the happy memories she shared with her beloved husband. That they will bring her a happiness amongst the sadness she's been/going through.

 

I can only say thank you.

 

 

 

I also agree with MrP that the FD token gesture is not worthy & an insult.

 

This was a traumatic time enough for Shelley loosing her husband & for the FD to compound that by their short comings (as per OP post), to the point Shelley now has to live with what she saw.

 

So to my mind, a full refund & 2 knee grovelling apology is no less than she deserves.

 

Shelley I do hope you find peace & a way to move on from this awful traumatic experience.

 

Best wishes indeed! x

[Shelley181146]

Shelley. Can I offer some words that I genuinely hope will draw this to a close for you. I speak as someone who has had two young family members murdered but also as someone who used to work in the industry many years ago. I am so sorry for your loss in such a terrible way. I can't begin to imagine how hard that was to cope with. Working in the industry must have felt quite weird?

 

I am confident that the very vast majority of funeral directors do actually do a great job, if that is the right choice of words. It is a money making business, yes. But I never went into it for the money. It is a genuinely caring profession at peoples most vulnerable and traumatic times. Needless to say, things can and sometimes do go wrong. Personally, I have mixed emotions on the 'business' now but i'm sure there are many who are very caring, of which I have no doubt. This hasn't been a one off incident for one 'body', these were systematic errors which have been repeated or closely matched by other 'bodies' which is why the FAS have got involved for many families.

 

When you go say your final goodbyes, it is often a devastating experience as the finality of it hits hard. The loved one will never look as you hoped, expected or indeed would want. You are used so seeing them sleeping, but this is different. No movement, no warmth. Post mortem lividity (redness) is very common. It will give the person a different look. The muscles are completely relaxed unlike sleeping, so they will have a kind of face lift appearance due to gravity. They will be colder than you thought, often little above freezing. This is because unlike what we may want to imagine, deceased persons need to be kept very cool indeed. Even after 'treatment' or embalming. Had this been my first death experience I could possibly accept what you are saying. You have an image of how you think your loved one should look but are completely devasted because they do not meet your expectations. However, this wasn't my first experience and actually, even with time allowances due to the BH I would not want anyone to have this lasting image of their loved one due to the shoddy services of what use to be known in my family as a good old professional organisation. They have admitted their failings......

 

I do not know the actual circumstances of course and have no reason to doubt what you are saying. It is a horrible time and experience for you. But I would ask you to consider this. As horrible as that day was for you and as awful a memory as it is, can you find a way to conjure up right now a smiling image of him? An image of him in better days, on a great day when you both were full of youth and magic? Birds singing, sun shining. Just a perfect moment. Can you do that? Can you now hear him saying something? What would he tell you to do about this? I am sure he would tell you it is OK and that he would not want you upset or distressed like this. He would put a loving hand on your shoulder, smile and say 'don't let it upset you'. Am I right? NO......I'm afraid not! My husband was a stickler for attention to detail and whenever he purchased anything, it had to be right. He would kinow I have the strength to resolve this matter and be able to move on with my life, once justice has been resolved.

This is the most difficult thing to say, but can you find a way to remember him in better days. He has gone, yes. But can you let that one moment pass and grab hold of all the wonderful memories again. The laughter, the fun, the good times? I am absolutely sure that is what he would want you to do. Due to the vast array of 'sad stuff' I have had to deal with for both losses I have, with the wonderful help of family and friends been able to smile again, to carry his wonderful smile on a new phone case cover for easy access to remind me of better times.

 

I genuinely hope you take this as a friend offering a shoulder and heartfelt best wishes. What happened is not nice, but it is one moment in a million others that were nice. Don't let that one moment hold you back any longer. Move forward with great memories knowing a wonderful man was there and would not want you to be upset any longer.

 

Kindest wishes and thoughts.

Roaring mouse, I thank you for your kind words and supporting message and I know you mean well.

Please don't take this the wrong way but this was a life changing sum of money in a sensitive transaction which has had devastating consequences attached.

[Shelley181146]

Mr P & Rainbow Tears, thank you for your messages. I am truly grateful that someone recognises the hurt and anxiety this has caused.

 

I am in talks with Consiliation service so the matter is still not yet resolved.

 

They talk of winning as if it were a day-to-day transaction but I swiftly explained that there are to be no winners in this matter but a settlement which, in months to come I would feel able to sit back and say "I managed justice and I can now move on", with a headstone in place and the dreadful images fading from my memory.

 

Thay talk about a confidentiality clause which I rebuffed immediately. The whole experience has been dreadful and I would not want anyone else to go through this. I struggled because I had no idea what to do, where to go and came here.

[Shelley181146]

Well, the mediator has given me the F.D full and final offer and I sense a feeling of 'the old pals act' between the consilliator and the F.D. Something the consilliator said to me on a previous telephone call didn't sit right and hey presto, the final offer matches!

 

Has anyone been through a consilliator situation and been happy with the results?

 

I won't be taking their offer. It's an insult and certainly no where near my expectations or those which some members have suggested.

[citizenB]

I am sorry this is still no nearer to concluding for you Shelley.

 

 

I am struggling to understand why the FD is continuing to refuse to resolve this properly for you.

[ericsbrother]

To try and answer some of your other questions about you late husband's appearance.

 

When you see someone post-mortem they are very differet to whne they weer laive, as you say a reddening or red blotches on the skin are very common. the embalming process does not prevent decay, nor does the cold storage, they slow it down considerably but people will be very different.

 

FD's emply people to wash and dress the deceased and they apply make up to hide some of the blemishes and the incisions made during a post mortem examination but again this is still evident as the skin changes. The body often expands due to a build up of gases and that can lead to the coffin looking too small when it has properly measured in the first instance.

 

A had a close relative who was a funeral director an sometimes things do go wrong and it is the only event where nothing can ever put things right. He worked for the largest funeral service in the country and what they offer does unfortunately vary from branch to branch. As you have seen, there are large fees that they have no control over so when compensation is calculated this has to be borne in mind.

 

I arranged a funeral recently and the vicar was rubbish so when I mentioned it to the FD they said that they would withhold his fee. Now, the vicar may not like that but funeral services are money they keep all for themselves so they have to think before they complain too much.

 

Be clear what you want as compensation but be aware there are limits to what you can expect without paying out for a court battle.

Edited June 23, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Shelley181146]

I accept all those things mentioned, I have seen several relatives with various FD's but this is very different and the systematic errors have been accepted by this one.

The conciliation/arbitration service do not pay out damages for trauma caused by these events, only to refund a portion of services not received satisfactorily.

Considering how much was paid and the trauma caused I will be better suited going to court and claiming damages over and above the refund of failed services.

But if I don't follow through with the arbitration service will the courts take a dim view of this?

[ericsbrother]

yes as it s an ADR and you are expected to use it where one exists.

Also compensation is just that, you get paid a sum of money that represents your loss and puts you bvack in a [position where you started. Some claims also have an elemt for pain and suffering but you have to quantify that and that will be very difficult and the circumstances of this may well count against you as people's grief and thus sensitivites will be considered as being the norm.

My advice is to accept the apology and whatever the arbitration service awards as you have more than enough to worry about and try and move on. If a court decided you are right they may well set a level of damages at less than you have been offered and then you will end up with their costs to pay as well. It is just how things work.

I sued my local council a couple of years back and the amount awarded was 1p plus an apology which meant I would have picked up the bill for both sides (mine being nothing) but the council refused to apologise so the apology was valued at £500 by the court but that was based on the Vento scale.

[BazzaS]

I accept all those things mentioned, I have seen several relatives with various FD's but this is very different and the systematic errors have been accepted by this one.

The conciliation/arbitration service do not pay out damages for trauma caused by these events, only to refund a portion of services not received satisfactorily.

Considering how much was paid and the trauma caused I will be better suited going to court and claiming damages over and above the refund of failed services.

But if I don't follow through with the arbitration service will the courts take a dim view of this?

 

Is it mediation or arbitration?. Or another form of "alternative dispute resolution" (ADR) ; there are many, of which arbitration and mediation are the most common.

 

Mediation doesn't have to come to a conclusion accepted by both parties, it can be "no resolution reached", even with the best intent on both sides. Mediation can offer flexibility though : it isn't limited to purely monetary aproaches (so, an apology might form part of an agreed resolution).

 

Arbitration reaches a conclusion, and although one party can use the courts to appeal that decision, the grounds on which one can do so are limited.

 

(So, mediation is "non-determinative" while arbitration is a "determinative" type of ADR).

 

If ADR is being looked at as part of bringing a claim : there is no obligation to undertake ADR, only to consider it. However, some contracts impose arbitration as the alternative to a court claim, and the circumstances in which the courts will overrule this are limited.

 

If a party unreasonably refuses to engage in ADR, the court can consider this when deciding on costs in any subsequent case.

ADR can be declined and it be reasonable to do so (for example if the costs of the ADR would be disproportionate to the value of the case, or it was obvious that the 2 parties were so firmly entrenched in their positions that mediation was pointless).

 

Any attempt at ADR must be in good faith, so a party that agreed ADR merely "to appear to be doing the right thing", and it was clear they never intended to engage in the process could be treated as if they had unreasonably declined ADR.

[Shelley181146]

Is it mediation or arbitration?. Or another form of "alternative dispute resolution" (ADR) ; there are many, of which arbitration and mediation are the most common.

 

Mediation doesn't have to come to a conclusion accepted by both parties, it can be "no resolution reached", even with the best intent on both sides. Mediation can offer flexibility though : it isn't limited to purely monetary aproaches (so, an apology might form part of an agreed resolution).

 

Arbitration reaches a conclusion, and although one party can use the courts to appeal that decision, the grounds on which one can do so are limited.

 

(So, mediation is "non-determinative" while arbitration is a "determinative" type of ADR).

 

If ADR is being looked at as part of bringing a claim : there is no obligation to undertake ADR, only to consider it. However, some contracts impose arbitration as the alternative to a court claim, and the circumstances in which the courts will overrule this are limited.

 

If a party unreasonably refuses to engage in ADR, the court can consider this when deciding on costs in any subsequent case.

ADR can be declined and it be reasonable to do so (for example if the costs of the ADR would be disproportionate to the value of the case, or it was obvious that the 2 parties were so firmly entrenched in their positions that mediation was pointless).

 

Any attempt at ADR must be in good faith, so a party that agreed ADR merely "to appear to be doing the right thing", and it was clear they never intended to engage in the process could be treated as if they had unreasonably declined ADR.

 

I was directed by the FD'S to the Funeral Arbitration Service (FAS) which I did, thinking they were like the ombudsman in a financial matter.

 

However, I wasn't given the full facts and have only recently been told they will not consider damages. Apparently, they take you through the conciliation process first and stress that whatever is discussed can't be used in any other 'legal' process if a settlement can't be reached. If conciliation fails he 'pings' it over to the Arbitrator for them to deal with who makes their decision purely on the documents in the case.

 

IF, I disagree on a point of law then, and only then can I apply to the High Court to consider an appeal. I went into this process willingly and hoping that this would be resolved. I donot think the conciliator is taking this matter seriously enough. However, this isn't just about grieving the loss of a loved one when they played the wrong music at the service!!! This is far more serious and this is happening far too often to so many people.

 

I have to take this to court myself in order to be heard by a judge who will take into consideration the damage this company has done, above and beyond the 'normal grieving' process.

 

I am not a greedy person nor am I unreasonable, this is about justice for malpractice and failed services.

Edited July 19, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

I was directed by the FD'S to the Funeral Arbitration Service (FAS) which I did, thinking they were like the ombudsman in a financial matter. However, I wasn't given the full facts and have only recently been told they will not consider damages. Apparently, they take you through the conciliation process first and stress that whatever is discussed can't be used in any other 'legal' process if a settlement can't be reached. If conciliation fails he 'pings' it over to the Arbitrator for them to deal with who makes their decision purely on the documents in the case. IF, I disagree on a point of law then, and only then can I apply to the High Court to consider an appeal. I went into this process willingly and hoping that this would be resolved. I donot think the conciliator is taking this matter seriously enough. However, this isn't just about grieving the loss of a loved one when they played the wrong music at the service!!! This is far more serious and this is happening far too often to so many people.

I have to take this to court myself in order to be heard by a judge who will take into consideration the damage this company has done, above and beyond the 'normal grieving' process.

I am not a greedy person nor am I unreasonable, this is about justice for malpractice and failed services.

 

http://www.nafd.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Funeral-Arbitration-Scheme-leaflet-revision-No-3-Nov-2012.pdf seems to suggest that if the first 2 stages of a complaint don't yield an agreed solution that the complainant can choose between arbitration and court.

 

Do you have to go to arbitration (if you feel it is more limited in its scope for damages)?

Or can you make it plain that if stages 1 and 2 fail that you want to go to court rather than arbitration? : does your contract MANDATE arbitration?

[BazzaS]

http://www.cedr.com/idrs/documents/150714155832-fas-arbitration-rules-2012-edition.pdf

 

I can't see where there is a limit placed on the award the arbitrator can make, limiting it to the cost of the service provided or removing the possibility of damages .....

[Shelley181146]

Point 1 (1)(2)

[BazzaS]

Point 1 (1)(2)

 

You want compensation in excess of £10k??

Or are claiming for "nervous shock"??

[Shelley181146]

I want to claim for damages as a result of the trauma caused by viewing my husband.

They (F.D) damaged my husband's body by their negligence and lack of care and my photographs prove this, and the (F.D) correspondence explains how it happened!

This was not a usual viewing of a loved one.

[BazzaS]

I want to claim for damages as a result of the trauma caused by viewing my husband.

They (F.D) damaged my husband's body by their negligence and lack of care and my photographs prove this, and the (F.D) correspondence explains how it happened!

This was not a usual viewing of a loved one.

 

How much do you think you will be claiming?

 

1.2 The service does not apply to claims for compensation exceeding £10,000, or to claims concerning physical injury, illness or nervous shock or their consequences.

 

 

Which is why I was asking

You want compensation in excess of £10k??

Or are claiming for "nervous shock"??

 

If not for more than £10k, why does 1.2 apply?

"Nervous shock"?

 

Have you had a diagnosis made of a condition that will allow you to claim "nervous shock"?

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/personal-injury/negligence-and-nervous-shock/

[Shelley181146]

How much do you think you will be claiming?

 

 

 

 

Which is why I was asking

 

 

If not for more than £10k, why does 1.2 apply?

"Nervous shock"?

 

Have you had a diagnosis made of a condition that will allow you to claim "nervous shock"?

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/personal-injury/negligence-and-nervous-shock/

I suspect it will be less than £10k and no I haven't been diagnosed with nervous shock but it has traumatised me and my counsellor has said it is delaying my healing process and not allowing me to grieve properly..

I'm not paying a solicitor £200 per hour to deal with it, nor am I paying for barristers/ court counsel to get involved. I just want to know if I take it to court will the judge look at the damages part of the claim as well as the rest of it? Will the judge take a dim view of me not using the Arbitration service when I explain the trauma it has caused?

[BazzaS]

I suspect it will be less than £10k and no I haven't been diagnosed with nervous shock but it has traumatised me and my counsellor has said it is delaying my healing process and not allowing me to grieve properly..

I'm not paying a solicitor £200 per hour to deal with it, nor am I paying for barristers/ court counsel to get involved. I just want to know if I take it to court will the judge look at the damages part of the claim as well as the rest of it? Will the judge take a dim view of me not using the Arbitration service when I explain the trauma it has caused?

 

Damages for what though?. As the link I posted highlights : you can't claim for grief.

 

I'm not meaning to make light of how awful things were / are, nor would I wish that on anyone.

 

It just sets out the current state of the law, as is.

What I'm not sure on is at what point not being able to grieve properly and having delayed healing becomes severe enough to become actionable for damages, unless medically diagnosed.

[ericsbrother]

Criminal injuries compensation for a broken nose is aroind £1000. Bear in mind that this level of compensation requires a criminal act plus corrective surgery. As awful as the experience you had was it isnt really something you should be tearing yourself apart over when the end result will be just more suffering and possibly a considerable financial loss as well.

 

I doubt if a doctor will diagnore PTSD as a result of seeing your husbands body as the grief of bereavement will have to be taken into account. If you could find a doctor that agrees with you the other side's lawyers will find 100 who say that this level grief is normal after bereavement and no separate trauma has been diagnosed.

 

Please, accept the arbitration as yes, a judge can and will make a decision about your failure to use the offered service and that will always be to your detriment.

 

If the arbitrator gives you a positive outcome regarding your complaint but you do not agree to the compensation then you would be in a better position to make a claim but again, if the judge decides the level set by arbitration was right them you pay all of the other sides costs and that will probably be a lot more than you could ever hope to receive.

Edited July 23, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

 

Please, accept the arbitration as yes, a judge can and will make a decision about your failure to use the offered service and that will always be to your detriment.

If the arbitrator gives you a positive outcome regarding your complaint but you do not agree to the compensation then you would be in a better position to make a claim

 

Is the OP's ability to initiate a claim not severely limited once arbitration is initiated?.

 

I thought the ability to challenge an arbitral award was limited to points of law?

[BazzaS]

Please, accept the arbitration as yes, a judge can and will make a decision about your failure to use the offered service and that will always be to your detriment.

 

Can the OP not say "my responsibility was to consider ADR.

Not only did I consider it, I undertook mediation.

I have no obligation to accept arbitration once mediation failed, in fact the NAFD scheme has 3 stages

1) Local resolution

2) Mediation, but the 3rd stage can be either arbitration or a court claim".

 

I suspect it would fall to the "judicial lottery" and the individual judge's interpretation!

 

Is the OP's ability to initiate a claim not severely limited once arbitration is initiated?.

 

I thought the ability to challenge an arbitral award was limited to points of law?

 

Clarification : for a s.69 challenge once the award has been made. I'm not including the other grounds such as disputing jurisdiction (earlier) or claiming serious procedural impropriety.

[Shelley181146]

I will go and see my GP for their opinion and show them the evidence I am dealing with. I have also spoken to a solicitor who I may decide to discuss the matter with.

I have to live with this memory, and the decision I make so I can move forward.

This is not just grief I am dealing with, this is systematic failings of an organization who portray 100 years of so called first class service.

Would this be acceptable to you?

You make it sound so easy. Take the money and move on!!!

[Shelley181146]

So, I have undertaken many week of mediation at the start of which I expressed that I would not agree to any confidentiality clause at the point of settlement, which the mediator reminded me that during this process I was strictly to abide by the confidentiality, which I have. Then in the next breath they advised a seek legal advice on whether to accept their offer or 'ping' it across to arbitration, as they put it. So on the one hand I can discuss it with a solicitor and my family but yet I am not allowed to breach to confidentiality clause? Well, I've listened and debated this long enough and was yesterday prepared to accept their increased offer on the understanding that their was to be no confidentiality clause with the settlement terms.

Blow me down with a feather, they have pulled the plug of all of it saying I have refused to abide by the rules and I now have to discuss the matter directly back with the FD!!!

 

I have previously taken banks to court for settlements and refused their confidentiality clauses and it didn't bother them - this obviously explains why you'll never find grievances on google about your local Funeral Directors - they keep it under wraps hidden in their T&C's of settlements.......

[Shelley181146]

The FD have written to me today which states as follows;

 

"Following our recent discussions with xxxx xxxx, mediator, we understand that you have decided to leave the conciliation process.

Please may I confirm, as discussed previously, that our final offer is, and remains to be £xxxx conditional to completion through the NAFD conciliation process that you yourself chose to enter.

Please do not hesitate to contact me on xxxxxxxxxx; however if we do not hear from you within 28 days from the date of this letter we will shall consider the matter closed."

 

It was my understanding that the complaints procedure with the FD was exhausted and that the NAFD was the next course of action in the process - not too dissimilar to that of the F.O.S when having a complaint with your bank? So what difference do they think this will make to the situation?

 

I am being forced to accept an offer with the conditions of the confidentiality clause or get nothing!

 

I can't share the distressing photo's of this matter but believe me when I say the Funeral business is ripping people off by thousands of pounds and hiding complaints under the confidentiality clause, which is why when you google the topic there is very little to expose!

 

How about I accept the offer and whistle blow later down the line?

[ericsbrother]

you do not breach a confidentiality clause by speaking to a solicitor or your family, why would you believe that? It basically means that any agreement is betwen you and the FD and not public information so you cant go to the local papers and say what a shower they are and they only refunded £xxx afterwards You can get any documents read by your solicitor to ensure you arent being walked all over before you sign them