Claimant Commitment for ESA claimants (trial) early 2015

[tommy456]

Just stumbled on this story,

 

has this been posted on here already?

 

and is it actually being implemented yet ?

 

would appear that this government will stop at nothing when it comes to causing pain and suffering to the poor and vulnerable

 

http://www.welfareweekly.com/dwp-gets-tough-sickness-benefit-claimants/

[essexmat]

Absolute DISGRACE if true.

 

 

The whole point of there being JSA and ESA is that JSA claimants are deemed ready for work and physically fit and mentally capable enough to seek work and job search/attend appointments etc. When on ESA a medical professionalhas deemed you not fit or well enough and undergoing treatment which prevents you either long or short term from seeking and undertaking work.

 

I cannot see how this is lawful in any way - there will be no differentiation between a JSA and ESA claimant

[estellyn]

I didn't think it was a secret that IDS wants to amalgamate WRAG into JSA claimant conditions (under UC) leaving support group for those he considers 'truly' unfit for work.

[essexmat]

Where would that leave people with short term bouts mental health, anxiety and depression (say 3 months)? Part of the recovery is time with family and friends and trying to get better not attend work programmes and doing CVs and job searching which will make them WORSE.

[worried33]

No surprise to me.

 

I remember when IDS said he was angry about people reclaiming ESA again after everytime they were fit for work, and he wanted to close what he considered a loophole, these proposals come close to doing that.

 

Also as estellyn said, it does seem now SG is the only real ESA, the WRAG is been made closer to JSA as every month passes, some tory MPs have already proposed to make WRAG payments match JSA.

 

Once they got away with not paying people during mandatory reconsiderations, the logical next step was to block payments for repeat claims.

[Littleredriding]

However you have to see the logic behind it all. As the law stands, if you fail the ESA test you are deemed to be fit for work and must claim JSA if you want financial support from the country. If you think that the decision is wrong, then you can appeal whilst still claiming JSA. If you have regular bouts of illness, I believe that under UC, the length of time you can be 'off sick' in a year under UC has been increased dramatically to cover such an eventuality. If you think that you should be claiming ESA, you will have to show a deterioration of an existing condition or a new condition.

This 'magic roundabout' under ESA needed to be shut down as many people saw it as a loophole to continue to receive ESA at the assessment rate even though they had been found fit for work. It was a way of not having to claim JSA.

For those in the 'Work Group' there has to be some distinction over those in the Support Group. That distinction is that they are more able to get back into work than those are in the Support Group. What do you suggest? Accept that anybody that is receiving ESA in any of the two groups be told that they need not look for work? If so, then ESA becomes just the same as IB.

[Nystagmite]

But some in WRAG will never be work ready. One criteria for WRAG which isn't support group is something to do with being able to get out the house safely / to do with getting around outside. How on earth can someone possibly be work ready in say, a year if they can't safely nagivate themselves outside? There's no way they an get to the job centre or the work programme.

 

That's why WRAG makes no sense. WRAG is fine if you've got a short term illness or are recovering from an accident or operation and it's reasonable to suggest that you can work in the future, which isn't the case for many of us.

[essexmat]

I agree totally. Also, what if you have regular mental health, anxiety and depression problems? Personally I regularly see a counsellor, am on ADs and beta blockers and being on JSA and the WP made it worse for me. It was not that I was not job ready, I had a £30k+pa job for 19 years it was being ground down by the pathetic WP and stupid courses which I was on with people that could not read or write or switch a computer on and had never worked in their lives. Try being on these courses with people who want shop work or a cleaners job (no disrespect to people that do that by the way) when you managed 6 staff, was responsible for data anaylis and financial control and regularly standing in for senior management at meetings - how is this tailored to meet the needs of the client?

 

Luckily I am on ESA (Assessment) and have been since August 2014 and have not been called yet BUT as soon as I am I will fail with 0 points and be put back on JSA, then back to WP and guess what - my symptoms and hard work at getting better will get worse again and I cannot reclaim ESA? So, I have to actively be looking for work when in a bad way?

 

In a way WHEN I am back on JSA I hope I do get worse as I could quite easily be prones to a full nervous breakdown - then what?

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Claimants who are in receipt of any category of ESA will have been assessed as having some sort of medical condition. Claimants who are in receipt of ESA and are awaiting assessment will need to have some sort of evidence, such as a report from doctor, to prove their eligibility.

 

Surely such claimants would be acting fraudulently if they did not disclose to a potential employer that they have a medical condition. If they do get into employment and the employer subsequently discovers that they have a medical condition, and did not disclose it, then the employer could dismiss them summarily for dishonesty, deception or false representation.

 

All this could be avoided if the claimant added a helpful note on application letters or on CV profiles to the effect that:

 

"Although I am currently in receipt of ESA, my doctors assure me that my medical condition is only intermittent and temporary and that in time, with the right treatment, a full recovery is possible. My DWP adviser assures me that my condition will not be regarded as a legitimate barrier to work by employers."

 

Surely any adviser who suggested that such a note should not be added or that the claimant's medical condition should not be mentioned at all would be advocating at least added costs, at most, fraud and deception, on a prospective employer.

 

We keep getting told that we have to do 4 weeks in a charity shop or stacking shelves in a supermarket, or some such mundane activity, to enhance our CV, deception in itself.

 

Don't prospective employers deserve more respect than to be lied to by prospective employees by order of the DWP.

 

For this plan or scheme to work ESA claimants will need to collaborate with DWP, most probably under duress or threat, and keep quiet about their medical condition to their own detriment.

[essexmat]

But where would you draw the line? Say, for example anxiety and depression. I did not have this when I started work and was with the same company for 19 years. The last 8 years I was with them I was on ADs and having counselling. Although I did not disclose the actual condition to them I sought advice from HR who advised me to simply say to my manager that if I needed time off I should speak to them in confidence. Obviously it is 2 way, if you are dismissed for being unwell that is a case in its own right - I am not sure of what legalities there are for discloing medical conditions to a new employer although this may come up on an application form such as when you disclose something on holiday insurance

[Nystagmite]

But for many of us, that isn't the case. Many of my conditions are incureable, unpredictable and are untreatable.

 

In theory, some of us could work; but what we need in order to work would be classed as completely unreasonable by any employer.

 

When I did work, my only diagnosis at the time was a eye condition, which because it was data entry, was fairly easy to work around and any problems I had, I was able to speak to the manager. Unfortuantely now, this isn't the case and the adjustments I need are completely unreasonable. And I'm sure I'll get sacked for the amount of time off sick.

[SabreSheep]

The government is mearly chasing its own tail.

 

Essexmat is a clear example of what this government is creating. Less people on JSA, as they are made ill by incompetance and unfair bullying and ending up on ESA

 

I wish IDS would stop WASTING MY TAX MONEY on his evil crusade

[Nystagmite]

Part of the reason why I went on to ESA was because of the harassment and general refusual of the work programme to listen and understand what I needed from them disability wise. They then wondered why I refused their offer of "help" to get back into work after being placed into support group.

[Mr.P]

Luckily I am on ESA (Assessment) and have been since August 2014 and have not been called yet BUT as soon as I am I will fail with 0 points and be put back on JSA, then back to WP

 

One silver lining to all this: You time on ESA Assessment counts towards your two year Work Programme sentence. The clock hasn't stopped ticking for them, and it won't be too long before you are free of that little threat.

[Littleredriding]

But some in WRAG will never be work ready. One criteria for WRAG which isn't support group is something to do with being able to get out the house safely / to do with getting around outside. How on earth can someone possibly be work ready in say, a year if they can't safely nagivate themselves outside? There's no way they an get to the job centre or the work programme.

 

That's why WRAG makes no sense. WRAG is fine if you've got a short term illness or are recovering from an accident or operation and it's reasonable to suggest that you can work in the future, which isn't the case for many of us.

 

I agree with you in that some people are 'lost in transit' when it comes to making decisions as to which group you should be in. However given your example, isn't it the case that there is a 'catch all' clause for those that don't entirely fit into the Support Group descriptors but are not capable of working? Surely you should then be appealing under that particular section if you feel so strongly that the wrong decision was made and that you are in the wrong group?

[tommy456]

However you have to see the logic behind it all. As the law stands, if you fail the ESA test you are deemed to be fit for work and must claim JSA if you want financial support from the country. If you think that the decision is wrong, then you can appeal whilst still claiming JSA. If you have regular bouts of illness, I believe that under UC, the length of time you can be 'off sick' in a year under UC has been increased dramatically to cover such an eventuality. If you think that you should be claiming ESA, you will have to show a deterioration of an existing condition or a new condition.

This 'magic roundabout' under ESA needed to be shut down as many people saw it as a loophole to continue to receive ESA at the assessment rate even though they had been found fit for work. It was a way of not having to claim JSA.

For those in the 'Work Group' there has to be some distinction over those in the Support Group. That distinction is that they are more able to get back into work than those are in the Support Group. What do you suggest? Accept that anybody that is receiving ESA in any of the two groups be told that they need not look for work? If so, then ESA becomes just the same as IB.

 

If it wasn't for the unfit for purpose WCA usually carried out by someone who is not as qualified as your GP or consultant are, but yet they with the help of some dodgy computer program are used to see if your condition fits neatly into the WCA pigeon holes (Descriptor /points based system) if it doesnt then their report is that you are fit for work, The DWP just go along with this typically the job of a (derision maker ) if this WCA test was Fit For Purpose And fair, carried out by real health care professionals (GP's And psychiatrists) who are still practising ,then there probably wouldn't be this so called merry-go-round needed, As people who are not fit to work wouldn't be persecuted like they are now,

if governments want to make cuts they should perhaps start with themselves, their numbers, their salaries, their expenses (expenses for the top politicians should be scrapped) then they should sort out the bank's and bankers bonuses , not persecute the poor and sick !!!!

[Littleredriding]

I agree totally. Also, what if you have regular mental health, anxiety and depression problems? Personally I regularly see a counsellor, am on ADs and beta blockers and being on JSA and the WP made it worse for me. It was not that I was not job ready, I had a £30k+pa job for 19 years it was being ground down by the pathetic WP and stupid courses which I was on with people that could not read or write or switch a computer on and had never worked in their lives. Try being on these courses with people who want shop work or a cleaners job (no disrespect to people that do that by the way) when you managed 6 staff, was responsible for data anaylis and financial control and regularly standing in for senior management at meetings - how is this tailored to meet the needs of the client?

 

 

Luckily I am on ESA (Assessment) and have been since August 2014 and have not been called yet BUT as soon as I am I will fail with 0 points and be put back on JSA, then back to WP and guess what - my symptoms and hard work at getting better will get worse again and I cannot reclaim ESA? So, I have to actively be looking for work when in a bad way?

 

In a way WHEN I am back on JSA I hope I do get worse as I could quite easily be prones to a full nervous breakdown - then what?

Your situation isn't unique. There are many people that work for the NMW that are qualified both educationally and experienced and are wasted doing those types of jobs. It shouldn't matter what you have done or want to do, a job is a job in my eyes. I would mention that a friend of the family, a qualified lawyer in between jobs, claimed JSA at 34 years of age. He offered to do any job in the interim.

[Littleredriding]

Claimants who are in receipt of any category of ESA will have been assessed as having some sort of medical condition. Claimants who are in receipt of ESA and are awaiting assessment will need to have some sort of evidence, such as a report from doctor, to prove their eligibility.

 

Surely such claimants would be acting fraudulently if they did not disclose to a potential employer that they have a medical condition. If they do get into employment and the employer subsequently discovers that they have a medical condition, and did not disclose it, then the employer could dismiss them summarily for dishonesty, deception or false representation.

 

All this could be avoided if the claimant added a helpful note on application letters or on CV profiles to the effect that:

 

"Although I am currently in receipt of ESA, my doctors assure me that my medical condition is only intermittent and temporary and that in time, with the right treatment, a full recovery is possible. My DWP adviser assures me that my condition will not be regarded as a legitimate barrier to work by employers."

 

Surely any adviser who suggested that such a note should not be added or that the claimant's medical condition should not be mentioned at all would be advocating at least added costs, at most, fraud and deception, on a prospective employer.

 

We keep getting told that we have to do 4 weeks in a charity shop or stacking shelves in a supermarket, or some such mundane activity, to enhance our CV, deception in itself.

 

Don't prospective employers deserve more respect than to be lied to by prospective employees by order of the DWP.

 

For this plan or scheme to work ESA claimants will need to collaborate with DWP, most probably under duress or threat, and keep quiet about their medical condition to their own detriment.

 

 

Maybe, and this is similar to someone that wanted to mention on his CV that he had been in prison for fraud, deception, theft and forgery. Although the conviction was 29 years ago and was 'spent', he felt it right that any future employer should know the full facts. It would come up in a Status check with the police as well covering one entire page if you google his name. The DWP told him that that he should keep quiet about it or risk losing his benefits.

[SabreSheep]

You missed his point.

 

MWA and the WP activities are supposed ot be beneficial to the claimant. His condition was made worse by being sent on courses that were not suitable. Why should my tax money be spent sending people on courses that teach them how to do basic things when their history and experience already proves the course to be a waste of time for them? Also most shop work and cleaners jobs are part time, zero hour contract and not suitable for a lot of people.

[Littleredriding]

If it wasn't for the unfit for purpose WCA usually carried out by someone who is not as qualified as your GP or consultant are, but yet they with the help of some dodgy computer program are used to see if your condition fits neatly into the WCA pigeon holes (Descriptor /points based system) if it doesnt then their report is that you are fit for work, The DWP just go along with this typically the job of a (derision maker ) if this WCA test was Fit For Purpose And fair, carried out by real health care professionals (GP's And psychiatrists) who are still practising ,then there probably wouldn't be this so called merry-go-round needed, As people who are not fit to work wouldn't be persecuted like they are now,

if governments want to make cuts they should perhaps start with themselves, their numbers, their salaries, their expenses (expenses for the top politicians should be scrapped) then they should sort out the bank's and bankers bonuses , not persecute the poor and sick !!!!

 

 

I believe that you have a point but you also have to consider not how can they increase income for the country but who is taking the biggest slice out of what the country actually earns. Unfortunately the Welfare budget is by far the biggest drain on the resources that this country has.

[tommy456]

I believe that you have a point but you also have to consider not how can they increase income for the country but who is taking the biggest slice out of what the country actually earns. Unfortunately the Welfare budget is by far the biggest drain on the resources that this country has.

welfare budget yes, but not those who are unemployed or sick, they cost less than the pensioners and non means tested benefits such a cold weather payments that are paid to ALL pensioners regardless of how well of they are, a bit like child benefits are, and then there is that other not so well talked about drain on the public purse WTC and other similar in work related benefits, that the government know they must pay due to the wage levels being so low akin to slavery imo , it's no wonder that some of the unemployed don't work, you don't see politicians working for peanuts do you, but they expect everyone else too do this, how can that be fair,and right?

 

Infact this lying government claim that they have created 1000s of jobs,when they have not, there are plenty of low paid part time or temporary jobs out there with no real future propped up by wtc's , then you have the JC+ sanctions league tables , staff are obviously encouraged to sanction as many claimants as they can , they well be paid commission for doing this just so they can claim that the number of unemployed has fallen therefore they are in work hence this lie about jobs , just as their predecessor(thatcher) did when her government encouraged those middle aged people who had been made redundant who had little chance of working again to claim sickness benefits, again to manipulate the real figures, truth is this government has done nothing but persecute the poor and sick, it has brainwashed some of the middle classes for votes at this election and nothing more, they don't give a stuff about me or you or anyone apart from themselves as sad as that is,

[SabreSheep]

I believe that you have a point but you also have to consider not how can they increase income for the country but who is taking the biggest slice out of what the country actually earns. Unfortunately the Welfare budget is by far the biggest drain on the resources that this country has.

 

Check your stats. ASIDE from pensions the biggest welfare bill is on Housing benefit of which the majority is paid to Low income families IN WORK. Our tax money subsiddises companys making private profit by paying below a living wage.

 

More resources were paid to prop up the banks than spent on welfare in many years.

 

Government borrowing this parliment has Risen!

 

Attacking the sick n poor is a dehuman distraction n those who believe the spin should take a good hard look in the mirror

[Lapsed Workaholic]

I would not pay too much attention to the big bad wolf huffing and puffing and trying to blow someone's house down. Today it's the sick and disabled.

 

The number of people whose death can be attributable to the current government's welfare policies is estimated to have now reached 60,000. There cannot be any justification for that and no amount of wriggling can make it right.

[Nystagmite]

but yet they with the help of some dodgy computer program are used to see if your condition fits neatly into the WCA pigeon holes (Descriptor /points based system) if it doesnt then their report is that you are fit for work

 

I have a very rare and serious neurological condition, which is being controlled by some rather nasty drug commonly given to people with certain forms of epilepsy. This condition doesn't, in any way fit any of the ESA descriptors. So, if I didn't have the other conditions I have, I would, according to ATOS / DWP, be fit for work. But I wouldn't last long - I mean, would anyone really want to employ someone who is constantly having to call in sick because they've got a headache again (and no, headache tablets don't touch it) or due to the medication side effects again? I don't think so.

 

I know there are laws in place to protect me; but there's those laws and me taking the ****.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

I know there are laws in place to protect me; but there's those laws and me taking the ****.

 

You know that there are laws in place to protect people with medical conditions such as yours. What evidence can the DWP, or anyone else, show to justify that those laws are not applicable to you specifically?