@vodafoneuk Stolen phone bill £1,888 , unlimited liability. Vodafone - help ** Settled **

[Peopod]

Hi,

 

My son visited Spain recently and unbeknown to him, his phone was stolen.

 

He simply thought it was in the apartment and didn't realise it had been stolen until he started to pack for the UK.

The phone was duly blocked but

 

it now transpires customers are responsible for all calls made until the phone is blocked

and not from when it was stolen.

 

My sons bill is around £1,888 for the stolen calls,

just over 400 of them which Vodafone are insisting my son pays

or they'll pass onto a debt collector and mark his credit rating,

which means he'll be financially ruined for the foreseeable future

as he simply doesn't have the money to pay for the stolen calls.

 

I asked Vodafone why they don't block phones with unusual behaviour overseas (as the banks do)

and they said they don't always receive data from overseas mobile companies

for sometime after the event but

 

I don't understand this as they've confirmed they sent my son a text to alert him

he was about to exceed his UK Plan

- his partner (the main account holder of 12 years) had opted him into a package called Euro Traveller

allowing customers to use their UK Plans when in Europe,

it sends an alert text if a customer exceed their plan.

 

This means they can see what's happening in real time or they wouldn't be able to text customers.

 

My sons monthly bill is around £26 per Vodafone against this bill of £1,888

for the 406 calls made which is definitely unusual behaviour.

 

I've checked The T/C's for Euro Traveller and

it doesn't have anything about customers being liable for calls up until they report their phone stolen,

not even in the part called 'Please be aware'.

 

The contract expires at the end of July

but Vodafone won't release the PAC code for my sons partner as they say this is classed

as 'one account' and there is still an outstanding bill.

If it's 'one account' shouldn't they have sent a text to both phones?

 

Vodafone told me it wouldn't be fair to other customers if they waived these charges but

I've found a lot of similar cases on various forums and in newspaper articles

where they have waived the charges for customers who have large bills

due to not realising their phones had been stolen.

 

One of these (Guardian) dates back to 2010 and so this isn't something new by the looks of it.

 

The first three cases I looked at totalled £14,000, all of them waived.

 

Can anyone help please?

 

Vodafone have placed the account into deadlock now

and we have until next Wednesday to try and sort this out.

 

Any help or advise very gratefully received.

Many thanks,

Edited July 8, 2014 by Peopod

[Conniff]

I've checked The T/C's for Euro Traveller and

it doesn't have anything about customers being liable for calls up until they report their phone stolen,

not even in the part called 'Please be aware'.

 

 

And conversely, I don't expect is says anything about them not being liable either.

 

 

We have a Vodafone rep on here, he will pick this up but not sure how he can help.

[Peopod]

Thank you, I appreciate any help I can get.

[rebel11]

Hi peopod

 

Have you checked the Vodafone T & C's against the Euro Traveller T & C's, what does the Vodafone T & C's state regarding reporting stolen phones?

Are the calls itemised, i.e. show which numbers have been called?

[Peopod]

Hi, I can't find the Vodafone T/C's to check against the Euro Traveller T/C's but I bet it says customers are responsible up until the point the phone is reported stolen. I've just reread the Euro Traveller T/C's and it definitely doesn't mention this. What it does say is that by opting in to the Euro Traveller, you're opting out of the European Monthly data spend cap which is around £42. I can see why they'd want to do something with the cap but to remove it altogether leaves the door wide open in terms of unlimited liability for customers who have their phones stolen and don't realise it. Why don't they alert customers to this fact, wouldn't it be fair at this stage in someone opting into the Euro Traveller package to tell them this? It also says you can keep track of your account whilst you're there and so Vodafone can see what is happening in terms of behaviour and call patterns. My son usually has a bill of around £26 per Vodafone which means he doesn't make a lot of calls even in the UK and working on just probability, it's unlikely he'll make 406 whilst he's overseas.

 

406 calls were made, primarily to two numbers with the Estonia country code. The call lengths were varied and dialling was in rapid succession. Premium numbers?

 

Thanks

[ks424]

Hi Peapod

 

I found this on the vodafone T&C if it helps -

 

17.7 Only provisions set out in this Agreement shall apply to Vodafone’s supply of Services to Customer. All other provisions are expressly excluded to the maximum extent permitted by law. The Parties acknowledge that, in entering into this Agreement, neither Party has relied upon any statement or warranty made, or agreed to, by any person, except those expressly set out within this Agreement. However, this shall not be taken to exclude either Party’s liability for fraud.

 

There doesn't appear to be any other mention of liability for fraud.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Peopod,

 

As your son's case has now reached a deadlock status, this means that our complaints procedure has been exhausted.

 

If you and your son would like to pursue things further, he'll need to contact the Ombudsman via the details provided in the deadlock letter.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Social Media Comms

 

Vodafone UK

[rebel11]

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/scotland/consumer_s/consumer_protection_for_the_consumer_e/consumer_contracts_s/unfair_terms_in_consumer_contracts.htm

[Peopod]

Hi Lee,

 

My sons partner (the main account holder) has been with Vodafone for 12 years, surely this counts for something? I can provide you with cases where the costs have been significantly higher than my sons (one of them £7,000) where all charges have been waived and so I don't understand how Vodafone waive charges for some people but not others? Sam told me it wouldn't be fair to other customers if they waived my sons charges but Vodafone have already waived charges for other customers and so it's not fair on my son.

 

Please can you help me, Lee, my son simply can't afford to pay these charges and is facing the debt collectors and financial ruin.

[Peopod]

Thanks for the link, Rebel11, appreciated.

[ks424]

Surely this is not the best response vodafone could of issued!. This customer of yours is looking for useful help and advice to find a way of resolving this issue. You may have well just said 'talk to the hand... because vodafone certainly will not listen! By the time your customer gets a response from the FOS her son's credit rating will already have been affected. Will vodafone put this matter on hold until the customer has had a fair chance to get some advice?? Or will you go ahead and ruin your customers credit file knowing its near impossible to undo?? Strikes me that you have set a precedent by waiving charges for some customers but not others, maybe you could explain the criteria you use to decide who has to pay and who doesn't. With all due respect Lee, your response seems very very poor and reflects on vodafone in a very negative manner. Maybe you should have a look at your CEO's views on customer service...

 

"I'm Jeroen Hoencamp, the Vodafone UK CEO.

I'm committed to ensuring we provide the best service possible and am therefore passionate about listening to our customers."

 

Its a shame this commitment has not filtered down to the front line!

[Peopod]

Thanks Ks424. I just need a bit of help from Lee so that I can sort this out.

[BankFodder]

Stephen Jensen usually has a mobile phone bill of around £35 a month. So he was shocked to see that Vodafone had debited £644 from his account in September – but that was only the start of his woes. Unknown to him, his phone had been stolen and used to make huge numbers of calls, almost entirely to Pakistan. He reported the phone as missing, but Vodafone was intransigent: he was liable for all calls, and the bill would be more than £7,000.

Jensen is the latest person to be chased by debt collectors appointed by a mobile phone company following the theft of a handset. His case demonstrates the unlimited liability that consumers face in the event their phone is stolen, but not reported. But it also raises questions about the behaviour of mobile phone companies, which are able to spot unusual patterns of activity but say they have no formal responsibility to alert customers or block calls.

Jensen, a London-based businessman who is setting up an alternative energy business, quickly cancelled his direct debit to stop any more money being taken from his account when he discovered the problem. He says he thought his phone was at his flat, although he admits he "can't be sure". "I tend to use Skype and a laptop when I'm away. I don't use my phone much, and was unaware it had been stolen."

Like millions of other mobile users, he was also unaware that the terms of contracts make users responsible for all calls made on their handset until it is reported missing. His phone was being used round-the-clock.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/18/vodafone-7000-bill-phone-thief

 

 

 

 

Recently I went on a trip to Barcelona. My phone was stolen along with my money and various other items in my bag. I was unable to make a call to vodafone to inform them of this as I had no access to a phone and no money in which to make a call or purchase internet time to email them. I went to the police station to file my report and was also unable to make any calls from there due to costs etc. When my friends form Australia joined me I was then able to use their phone to call vodafone and cancel my phone and inform them of the theft. Vodafone said at this time that no suspicious calls had been made and that they would cancel the phone. At the itme I was not very worried as I had pin protected my phone and assumed that there would be no way of a mugger being able to use the phone, more fool me.

 

Getting back to the UK I was sent a replacement sim card by Vodafone, which I was charged for. Having lost my Iphone 4 which I wasn only halfway through a 24month contract of I was unable to afford a new phone so used an old phone I had lying around. Everything seemed to be going very well until a month after I got back form Spain, and upon checking my online banking I see £1000 has been debited from my accoutn from Vodafone. You can Imagine my reaction, I literally burst into tears. They had not only forced me deep into my overdraft facility but a further 500 in the red. I immediately called Vodafone. The first cust rep I spoke to said he could see I had been the victim of fraud and he was escalating the matter to his manager immediately so that I could have the matter resolved. He said as I was unable to report the incident immediately I may be liable for the calls made but that his manager would be able to wipe the calls as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I was slightly relieved for a moment then the phone went dead, I was cut off. So of course I then began explaining my story to the next cust rep in India, 30 mins later and I'm speaking to the 3rd cust rep reiterating my story, sick of my own voice at this point and having to consistently repeat my security info to speak to a new person!

 

The new cust rep said there was absolutely nothing to be done, I am liable and I will pay. I was destrought, and I asked to speak to her manager, she refused. I had to spend 20mins convincing her I have the right to speak to her manager. Finally I am pushed through to a man who is far more aggressive and rude than neccassary, hardly someone I deem able to ease my worries. He again tells me I am completly liable for all calls and he will do nothing to help the situation. I am highly frustrated at this point and ask to speak to someone in the UK. He spend 25mins telling me I am unable to speak to anyone in the UK, it is a physical impossibilty, I am in utter disbelief, after being on hold for some time he says he will transfer me through, why he pushed it this far I have no idea.

 

Finally I speak to a rep in Glasgow, where I'm from! The girl speaks with her manager and discusses my case. She notes that the first cust rep I spoke to has escalated the matter and it is possible that the manager will call me back to discuss the 'gesture of goodwill' but for now she cannot help. She did however point me in the direction of my bank to file an indemnity claim to bounce back the direct debit. I immediately phone my bank - The Bank of Scotland - who dealt with my matter with the most kind and efficient mannor possible. I cannot say how relieved I was to have the indemnity claim happen, I got my money back and the cust rep forwarded me to the Financial Ombudsman as he was appauled at the way i have been treated by vodafone.

 

Two days later and still no word from Vodafone or a mysterious manager call. I do however get a text telling me I will be charged £5 for not paying my direct debit! The cheek! Followed by a call from vodafone asking me why I haven't paid my account bill. After having to, for the 4th time, explain my case to someone he escalates the matter AGAIN to a manager and says I will be called within 48 hours. Next thing I know vodafone haver barred all my outgoing calls and texts. I am outraged, they are charging me fees and barring my calls but not even having the courtesy to call me back!

 

Finally I am called by another 2 days later where agin I explain my case and the man says he still cannot do anything. I explain to him that I have been a customer with vodafone for 4 years, 2 of which were in Australia and I transfered to the UK vodafone becasue I had such great customer service in Australia. I pay £500 a year for my contract, I am a loyal customer, I imagine in the entirity of my future I will be spending in excess of 20k on a phone contract. And for them to treat me this way would be to lose a valuable customer, not only that, but to get a measly £1000 off me which is for fraudulant usage anyway. I am disgusted to be frank. The cust rep says he can do nothing and escalates again to his manager who will call me within 2 hours.

 

So now for the 6th time I am explaining myself to a stranger on the phone. The end on this conversation comes when he offer me 30% off as a 'gesture of goodwill', I almost cringe with insult. Why would I pay £700 worth of fraudulent calls? I tell him I am going to the financial ombudsman because vodafone have been unable to solve my query and he says I am not allowed until he escalates it further to his manager. He said she will ring me on Mon/Tue. It's Monday night and I have heard nothing. In my bill I can see all the calls are going to a spanish number obviously filtering the funds into an account, the calls are costing £20-30 each for hours. I am shocked vodafone has no interest in finding out who this number belongs to or how they and funnelling funds into it, shocked more that they have no regard for a longstanding and loyal customer of theirs. I'd like to see a cust rep who might be able to treat me with a bit of respect and call me when they say they will![/font]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?361661-Stolen-phone-charges-of-%25A31000-no-gesture-of-goodwill-from-Vodafone!-***Resolved***.

 

Vodafone - and the others have no interest because they get the money from you and it is a revenue stream.

Only the mobile phone providers could tell us how significant the revenue is - but of course they will never tell us and so we will never know. However what is clear is that they are benefiting from the profits of crime - and it doesn't bother them.

 

I suggest that you write to your MP specifically on this point.

[BankFodder]

Hi Lee,

 

My sons partner (the main account holder) has been with Vodafone for 12 years, surely this counts for something?

 

No. This counts for nothing

[Peopod]

Thanks for the links, Bankfodder, I appreciate it.

[Peopod]

Hi Lee,

 

The links Bankfodder has posted are about two Vodafone customers who had the same problem as my son. One of them was for £7,000. Both of them have had all charges dropped by Vodafone. Can you please look at them again. Sam told me it wouldn't be fair to other customers if the charges were dropped but as you can see for yourself via the links, Vodafone have and do drop charges.

 

Please can you help me?

 

Thanks,

 

Peopod

[Peopod]

Vodafone - and the others have no interest because they get the money from you and it is a revenue stream.

Only the mobile phone providers could tell us how significant the revenue is - but of course they will never tell us and so we will never know. However what is clear is that they are benefiting from the profits of crime - and it doesn't bother them.

 

I suggest that you write to your MP specifically on this point.

 

Thanks Bankfodder, I was really hoping that Lee would be able to help as he has some very positive comments on the forum. You can make appointments to see our MP and so I'll do that and see what he has to say about this.

[rebel11]

Hi Peopod

 

Write a Formal Letter of Complaint , mark it as such. Explain what's happened (phone stolen, any exceptional circumstance - reporting), how they have let you down (no call limit placed on account, all the other relevant points you've mentioned) and what you want them to do (write off the amount).

 

Send it to:-

 

Mr Jeroen Hoencamp

Chief Executive

vodafone UK

jeroen.hoencamp@vodafone. com

 

http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/complain/phone-and-broadband-complaints/billing/

[Peopod]

Thanks Rebel11. I've been at my computer for weeks trying to sort this out and so any help from you guys is fantastic.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Peopod
I didn't see all of the message and so reps

[Peopod]

Sorry Rebel11. I only saw the link to Ofcom when I first read your message but can now see the rest of your message about writing to the CEO. I've already emailed Mr Hoencamp, he replied saying someone from his Directors' Office would call me the next day, which they did,

I thought this was the light at the end of the tunnel for a little while there but the agent refused to look at the case again and told me if I contacted them again, including Mr Hoencamp, they may not answer me! I can write a formal letter but in the meantime they'll go ahead and pass this onto the debt collectors and mark the credit rating unless we agree to a monthly repayment plan which my son simply can't afford. Worth a try though and so thanks.

[rebel11]

Hi Peopod

 

You could write back to Mr. Hoencamp / Executive Team, tell them if they don't talk to you and resolve this matter then they will be talking to Watchdog, who I'm sure will be more then happy to investigate.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5fc83BZnM3bR7KyfSWstXd5/mobile-phone-fraud-bill-shock

 

 

Sorry Rebel11. I only saw the link to Ofcom when I first read your message but can now see the rest of your message about writing to the CEO. I've already emailed Mr Hoencamp, he replied saying someone from his Directors' Office would call me the next day, which they did,

I thought this was the light at the end of the tunnel for a little while there but the agent refused to look at the case again and told me if I contacted them again, including Mr Hoencamp, they may not answer me! I can write a formal letter but in the meantime they'll go ahead and pass this onto the debt collectors and mark the credit rating unless we agree to a monthly repayment plan which my son simply can't afford. Worth a try though and so thanks.

[veganite]

Vodafone have an expense themselves - to pay other network carriers for the 'stolen' calls made. Whilst vodafone are not under any obligation to cancel the charges since the phone was not reported as stolen, this thread just shows that vodafone are seeking to make further profits from the stolen mobile since they have not even offered a reduction in the bill as a goodwill gesture.

 

When I say that Vodafone are seeking to make further profits from this unfortunate incident, I mean that they could very well for the sake of customer goodwill just charge the wholesale price of the calls - the wholesale price being what they pay to the other networks. However, Vodafone have not done this which is indicative that they seek to make a profit from the stolen calls.

 

Peopod - sorry I can't help, just making a general comment pointing out that Vodafone could at least reduce the bill to that of the wholesale cost of the calls since IMO I consider this to be a fair conclusion seeing as the phone was not immediately reported as stolen.

[Peopod]

Hi Rebel11,

 

Yes I will do this. The same agent told me that they only escalate a case to see if it can be placed into 'deadlock', rather to see if a reasonable outcome can be achieved. Its all very bizarre.

[biggeorge]

Hi Peopod, Sorry to hear about the troubles your having.

 

One piece of advice I can give you is that Vodafone can't withhold the PAC code after you request it, There is strict rules in place now that they must give a PAC code

no matter if any balance is still owing.

If they don't and your number is important, shop front or business cards they will be in serious trouble and costly to them.

 

I always though all UK networks were now in a set limit for overseas calls and a set limit of £40, Would be worth checking up.

 

George

[rebel11]

Hi Peopod

 

The following bit is important, Vodafone have admitted that they don't receive call information straight away from the overseas network provider, so Vodafone couldn't inform your son straight away. In the T & C's does it state anywhere that your 'Text Alert' would not be immediate and that their would be a delay? They've given your son the impression, that the Euro Traveller operates pretty much the same as his existing UK plan where 'Text Alerts' were immediate, so they have omitted essential information on the sale of the Euro Traveller Plan. Would your son have gone for the Euro Traveller Plan if he knew the alerts weren't instantaneous? Nobody from Vodafone told him that would be the case.

 

'I don't understand this as they've confirmed they sent my son a text to alert him

he was about to exceed his UK Plan

- his partner (the main account holder of 12 years) had opted him into a package called Euro Traveller

allowing customers to use their UK Plans when in Europe,

it sends an alert text if a customer exceed their plan. '

Hi Rebel11,

 

Yes I will do this. The same agent told me that they only escalate a case to see if it can be placed into 'deadlock', rather to see if a reasonable outcome can be achieved. Its all very bizarre.