Mother-in-law with dementia could be kicked out by private landlord?

[katielovescat]

Hello,

 

I have a query. MIL lives with us in AST property. She lives in an annex room. Her name is on the tenancy agreement, but she did not sign it (my husband and I did), as she separately and verbally agreed with the LL (she is 89) that she could stay here until her death or needing to leave the property for health reasons). She contributes to the rent.

 

We received (just me and husband) a Section 21 notice, giving us eight weeks to move. They put her name on the Notice, but it was not addressed to her. And she did not sign the tenancy agreement. I think the LL thinks it unneccesary to give her a notice of any kind and she will just move with us.

 

The trouble is, since we moved here 2 years ago her mental condition has deteriorated although we know she does not want to move. Her carers who come twice a day, etc, are known to her. If we moved it would be very detrimental. We are prepared to fight her corner and stay here under the conditions she agreed with the LL, but she is not mentally capable of representing herself. Can we do this on her behalf?

 

As she didn't sign the AST she can't be served a S21 notice anyway and therefore it would come down to what they agreed. The LL will, needless to say, lie. We live in the country and the LL wants the house for immigrant farm workers.

 

She must have some rights with regard to this situation even though she is not able to do anything herself.

 

Grateful for any advice!

[citizenB]

We have a Shelter representative on the forums. I will send them an S.O.S. to see if they can advise. It might not be until tomorrow that you receive a response. Although others on the forums might also be able to advise.

[Guest jamesatshelter]

Hi Katie,

I work for Shelter, the housing charity.

This sounds like quite a complex case from a legal perspective.

You can get comprehensive advice from Shelter either by calling our helpline on 0808 800 4444.

If there is a Shelter advice centre near you, you can get face to face advice - check the Shelter website for locations.

Hope that helps.

Sorry I can't give you detailed advice myself but you need to talk to someone who is fully trained to give advice - I just know the basics.

Good luck

[citizenB]

Thank you for looking in James.

 

Katie, please keep us updated if you can

[rebel11]

Hi katie

 

CAB and AGEUK can also provide advise.

 

Here's some info:-

 

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/02238067-0FCF-4211-96B9-0C285B36C709/0/evictionprocesstenants.pdf

[45002]

Hello,

 

I have a query. MIL lives with us in AST property. She lives in an annex room. Her name is on the tenancy agreement, but she did not sign it (my husband and I did), as she separately and verbally agreed with the LL (she is 89) that she could stay here until her death or needing to leave the property for health reasons). She contributes to the rent.

 

We received (just me and husband) a Section 21 notice, giving us eight weeks to move. They put her name on the Notice, but it was not addressed to her. And she did not sign the tenancy agreement. I think the LL thinks it unnecessary to give her a notice of any kind and she will just move with us.

 

The trouble is, since we moved here 2 years ago her mental condition has deteriorated although we know she does not want to move. Her carers who come twice a day, etc, are known to her. If we moved it would be very detrimental. We are prepared to fight her corner and stay here under the conditions she agreed with the LL, but she is not mentally capable of representing herself. Can we do this on her behalf?

 

As she didn't sign the AST she can't be served a S21 notice anyway and therefore it would come down to what they agreed. The LL will, needless to say, lie. We live in the country and the LL wants the house for immigrant farm workers.

 

She must have some rights with regard to this situation even though she is not able to do anything herself.

 

Grateful for any advice!

 

You dont have to move out in 8 weeks just because of a s21 been issued,it's going to take a lot long for the LL to get his property back

 

After 8 week LL has to apply for possession order,even then after that LL has to get warrant and bailiff to evict tenants legal,so your talking about 3 or 4 months maybe longer before you have to move out

 

Is the deposit you paid protected and what are the dates on tenancy agreement when did it start end so on,need to know theses details so people can further advise you on this forum and help you with your mother as well...

[mariner51]

Unless LL granted MiL an individual TA for self-contained annexe, granting her lifetime occupation, I fear this 'annexe' may be part of your demised premise. As such MiL would not have to appear as T on your AST, so not entitled to receive Notice.

You do not indicate whether MiL is paying rent direct to LL or contributing to your costs (lodger)

[katielovescat]

Hi, thanks for your replies. This is a tricky situation for us. Some Romanian farm workers have arrived (our house faces the farm yard, the only residential house on the farmers private land, so there are no other neighbours who can see this) and they are living in a caravan just outside our front gate. We have three small children and these people are a little intimidating. We guess he plans to move them into the house when we are gone. My husband took the bin out the other night, at 10pm and one of them, in a baseball hat and with a scarf over his face (in a village at night!) heard the sound and quietly followed him. H turned round suddenly and there was this man just watching him.

 

Anyway, to answer the question, MIL's annexe is part of the house, there is no question about that. However, she is named on the AST as a Tenant. But she did not sign it. She paids rent direct to the LL via cash straight into his account. So she is not a lodger.

 

Regarding the Notice, it is incorrect. The date is correct but after the first six months it turned into a periodic tenancy and they have used a notice for fixed term. We do not plan to tell landlord's agent until the day after expiry of Notice, they would then have to start again, which would give us until 20 Dec. This is only with regard to my husband and myself.

 

Our other concern is obviously the people at our gate. And what they might do when they find we are not leaving. But that is a different question!

[rebel11]

If the farm workers cause any problems, just call the police. The section 21 has to be carried out correctly, otherwise there can be sanctions for the LL.

 

Hi, thanks for your replies. This is a tricky situation for us. Some Romanian farm workers have arrived (our house faces the farm yard, the only residential house on the farmers private land, so there are no other neighbours who can see this) and they are living in a caravan just outside our front gate. We have three small children and these people are a little intimidating. We guess he plans to move them into the house when we are gone. My husband took the bin out the other night, at 10pm and one of them, in a baseball hat and with a scarf over his face (in a village at night!) heard the sound and quietly followed him. H turned round suddenly and there was this man just watching him.

 

Anyway, to answer the question, MIL's annexe is part of the house, there is no question about that. However, she is named on the AST as a Tenant. But she did not sign it. She paids rent direct to the LL via cash straight into his account. So she is not a lodger.

 

Regarding the Notice, it is incorrect. The date is correct but after the first six months it turned into a periodic tenancy and they have used a notice for fixed term. We do not plan to tell landlord's agent until the day after expiry of Notice, they would then have to start again, which would give us until 20 Dec. This is only with regard to my husband and myself.

 

Our other concern is obviously the people at our gate. And what they might do when they find we are not leaving. But that is a different question!

[mariner51]

If MiL is contributing to your rent, and annexe (granny flat) is part of your demised premises, I doubt she has a seperate AST, only an 'understanding' with your LL. As others have stated s21 is not a NTQ. Even if you decided to vacate on expiry, you would be required to give due SPT notice of min 1 month, assuming it is not an agricultural T.

It is poss LL has served a precautionary s21, in the event your MiL dies and you are left renting a property worth more than you need/can afford, with no intent to progress at this time. Have you contacted LL to establish his intentions?

A forced eviction could take 2-3 months from exp of s21.

Your Romanian neighbours are just that, They may smell a funny colour, but they may be seasonal workers with no interest in renting your property.

[raydetinu]

If it does go to court, you need to defend and stae the circumstances and you could also use section 8 of HRA; which I understand is still being considered by the appeals court and this defence will not be ruled on until that is resloved. So I suspect a judge will not grant repossession at this point.

[katielovescat]

Hi, I have am update. I haven't brought up the question of my mother-in-law yet with the agent, as I was waiting to let them know that the Section 21 notice they served us was incorrect. I wrote to them the other day, but the agent says he has been advised by three solicitors that the incorrect notice is just an anomoly and they will go to court for a possession order, but also, just in case, they will reissue the correct notice. Now I am worried, do judges sometimes let the notice stand, ever when it is invalid?? This is what I wrote:

I write with reference to your Notice requiringpossession dated 17 July 2012 addressed to XXX. Having taken legal advice, we are advisedthat this notice is invalid. Your Noticerequires possession under the Housing Act 1988 Section 21(1)(b), which as youknow is a requirement for fixed term tenancies. Our tenancy agreement has been a rolling contractual periodic tenancysince 19 January 2011 and therefore any notification requesting possessionshould be made under Section 21(4)(a) of the Housing Act 1988. As you are aware, a minimum of two monthsnotice must be given and therefore the earliest date of a request under thisSection of the Act would be 19 December 2012.

[raydetinu]

You should not have told them about the dates being incoreect as that would have been your defence! and still can be of course, but they have the heads up notice now and can redraft it, You just dont know how a judge will react, but suspect he will not prejudice your point and grant you plenty of time anyway even if he allows the notice to stand.

You dont appear to have answered the deposit question, did you pay a deposit and is it protected? if not protected then S21 invaiid.

Also dont forget the section 8 of the HRA as a defence to the interference of the court in family life.

[katielovescat]

Hi, thanks for replying. I thought I would tell them about using the wrong section of the housing act because then they might not issue possession proceedings right away and wait almost three months for a new notice to take affect. I was then going to bring up my mother-in-law at that stage. So it is true that judges can allow the notice to stand even if the wrong part of the legislation is cited?

The deposit is protected.

But also my mother-in-law did not sign the AST so the Section 21 notice would be invalid for her anyway. I think.

Section 8 is interesting, I have been looking it up.

 

As a bit more information, I believe the LL issued the notice in the first place in July one day after he came to the property to fix a tap and I asked, again, for the gas safety certificate and to fix the gas fire (unserviced for two years) and the gas hob. He looked pretty angry and the next day a possession notice was hand delivered. I then got a gas safety engineer myself and he disconnected both the hob and gas fire saying they were unsafe. There have been no gas safety certificates, it turns out.

 

I am very interested in the connection between retaliatory eviction and the HRA, particularly this:

 

"It is now settled law that a person at risk of being dispossessed of his home by a public authority (ie a court) should have the right, under article 8 Sch 1 HRA to challenge the proportionality of his eviction and to have it decided by an independent tribunal.

How far this extends to possession claims brought by a private landlord is still to be resolved. The issue was expressly left open in Pinnock, but it is very strongly arguable that article 8 will be applicable, not only because the courtis itself a public authority (HRA 1998 s6) but also because the ECHR has applied article 8 in cases where only private parties were involved:

 

If article 8 were held to apply to private sector possession claims, as it seems to us that it must be, then it provides the opportunity for a tenant to advance the defence of retaliatory eviction. As the Supreme Court said in Pinnock, the question for the court is always whether the eviction is a proportionate means of achieving alegitimate aim. There can be no legitimate aim in evicting someone for exercising their statutory rights; evicting someone so as to frustrate theexercise of that right is – in our view – always illegitimate."

 

Apologies for the messy copying and pasting.

Edited September 28, 2012 by katielovescat
spelling

[mariner51]

So MiLs annexe is part of your demised premise, not subject to sep AST.

It is permissable for you to have a close family member staying and contributing to rent. Many LLs accept rent payments from ind occupants toward T rent committment.

LL/Judge may regard MiL as lodger, hence your resp.

If s21 repo order grantes,it applies to all occupants. I doubt HRC s8 will apply to much of UK LL&T legislation, unless by precedent

[katielovescat]

Can someone point me to the particular case in the appeals court re HRA? Thank you!