Definition of "period of absence"

[insigniades]

Let me give you some background, I hit a trigger point when I was off for an extended amount of time due to stress, I returned to be told I was due a capability hearing - 7 month down the line this capability has still not been carried out and I have been off sick twice since then.

 

What I'm concerned about is that could they use the 2 recent illnesses against me if the capability does go ahead?

 

And how long is a reasonable time to delay a hearing?

 

This is causing me more stress now having to think about it!

[insigniades]

I had a capability hearing yesterday at work for a large amount of sickness, the majority of which is work related stress and a lot of the other issues could be attributed to the stress. The official outcome of which was an extension on my sickness monitoring for 6 months.

 

I am currently still signed off work by my GP.

 

I have since been told that the only reason I wasn't dismissed was because the director who chaired the meeting believed I was currently not sick and at work making a positive contribution.

 

I was then told that I need to get my GP to sign me fit to work "as that was the agreement made in the hearing". No such agreement was made and I, and my union rep were under the belief that once I returned to work they would monitor my sickness - that would be the end of it.

 

An hour following the hearing I spoke to our HR department to confirm that my GP had refused to sign me as fit to work but also made it clear I was under the impression the final outcome had already been given - the HR representative then told me "no, nothing is final until you receive the letter to confirm it and the director who chaired the meeting could still change his mind in the meantime"

 

Does this sound right? Surely you cannot give an employee, who is on sick with work related stress a decision that allows them to keep their job, then double back on that decision and dismiss them?

 

If some of this doesn't make sense please do say so and I will try to elaborate, thanks in advance to anybody who posts!

[Marieleeza]

My union rep told me something similar today. He said that at a disciplinary meeting they came to a conclusion but would not put it in writing. He challenged this and they said that they would not put it in writing until they had a response from the worker. They are just hedging their bets and trying to avoid an ET case.

 

I suppose they could argue that they need time to deliberate before putting the decision in writing. Why not get your doctor to sign you as fit to work with adjustments - temporary redeployment - phased return to work - time off for therapy and see how they like them apples? I believe that offering a return to work puts you in a stronger position than if you have no forseeable return date. I would get the fit note with adjustments immediately, if I were you.

[papasmurf1cx]

How long has the sickness lasted? What exactly has the diagnosis been, anxiety depression? Has your illness affected your activities of daily living, concentration for example?

 

If you are covered by the Equality Act 2010 then their actions are potentially victimisation especially if you have previously submitted a grievance over your treatment, have you?

[insigniades]

Thanks for your response, I do have the decision in writing now so if they were to dismiss me now I believe they would find themselves on the receiving end of a tribunal hearing.

 

As for your suggestion about going back to work with adjustments I may suggest I do a 4 day week for a few weeks to assist my rehabilitation... Then again, the HR department have told me they don't believe my illness is work related... How they can say that when they are not medically qualified I don't know!!

[insigniades]

@papasmurf hi, this illness is stress although occupational health believe there is anxiety and depression in there too.

 

The illness first reared it's ugly head in mid 2010 and I have been up and down since, work officially have 3 periods of work related stress down.

 

The illness has a serious impact on my day to day activities, my sleeping is knocked as is my appetite and concentration, the past week or two I have also been extremely forgetful.

 

After the hearing I had 2 phone conversations with a lady from our HR department both times she ended up arguing with me and basically telling me it's easy to get a doctor to sign you off work - in other words, you could be lying. What they don't realise is that by arguing with me n threatening me with potential dismissal it is in fact making me worse and my health took a serious knock so much so she afterwards rushed through an occupational health referral as she was "worried".

 

Thanks for your responses, much appreciated.

[papasmurf1cx]

I think you will be covered by the Equality Act 2010 provisions in which case if they dismiss you then (assuming your letter states "was an extension on my sickness monitoring for 6 months." and not the other aspect you mention above) that may be discriminatory and victimisation. Is the union on board with all this or not? Unions can turn on you when dealing with issues of discriminatory practice in employment (which may in turn also be discriminatory !! ) ?

 

Is there any reason why HR are still phoning you and making arguments with you? To be honest when this happened to my wife I wrote to HR and told them in no uncertain terms that constant phone calls (and in your case argumentative interactions too) is making you condition worse and that possibly is victimisation. Can you write to them and tell them all future communications should be in writing to avoid making your condition worse? It would also make what they say to you undeniable as it would be in writing and clear.

 

Have you put in a grievance over past problems or not? You may have to put one in on your treatment post Capability Hearing, speak to the union rep it is not on that they harass you (which also may be discriminatory harassment).

 

What area of work are you in private or public service?

[insigniades]

Hi I have a grievance hearing coming up with regards to them breaking procedures...

 

I work for an organisation that is ex council, they class themselves as public sector.

 

I phoned the HR team to make it clear my doctor doesn't want to sign me as fit as he doesn't think I am, nor do I - that's why it progressed to an argument - and the HR rep basically telling me that if they were in my shoes they would be demanding my doctor to sign them as fit.

[papasmurf1cx]

You should not go against doctors advice. If your GP does not think you fit HR should be sending you to Occupational Health. Are you under any local Mental Health Teams?

 

Also are there any health benefits attached to your employment eg in the NHS there is Injury Benefits if the illness or injury are 'caused' by the employer. If you are saying that the employer did cause these and if you can show that one or possibly two incidents put you over the top and made you ill and it was not caused in an incremental way, then the DWP should be informed of your believe that this is an Industrial Injury. II can, depending on seriousness, attract a II disablement benefit. After assessment, and by this they allocate percentage disability, as long as it above a certain percentage they will award benefit. (Not sure from what you said you would get the benefit, but you could at least get a declaration that it was an industrial injury.)

[insigniades]

Hi, no not under any mental health teams - it is predominately stress.

 

I should be receiving an invite for an occupational health session in due course, the employer are refusing to acknowledge that it is their fault I am off work sick.

[papasmurf1cx]

They will NEVER admit they caused any stress to you. Beware of OH, they are employed by your employer too and despite them saying all is confidential, the chances are information will get to the management.

[insigniades]

NHS occupational health? Surely if that information gets to the management it would be a serious breach of privacy??

[papasmurf1cx]

Yes...... but why would that stop them when they are accused of serious allegations!!!!!!! Just beware... do not be a lamb to the slaughter.

[insigniades]

Thanks for the advice

[jtors65]

how long have you been ill with depression, did your emplotyr cause it?

[insigniades]

Hi, I first had a serious bout about 13 - 14 Months ago and yes I completely believe they caused it.

[insigniades]

I have already one thread open regarding the same situation - but this is a different problem.

 

I had a capability hearing the other day, the director that chaired the meeting was apparently under the belief that I was currently at work and fit enough to do my job.

 

I am currently signed off for a further week and a half.

 

The outcome of the hearing was 6 months absence monitoring... They then proceeded to tell me I needed to try and get my doctor to sign me as fit to work, I spoke to my doctor who refused point blank to do so as he (and I) believe I am unfit for work.

 

I spoke to our HR department regarding this and all I got was a shouting match where I was told :

 

A) The capability hearing outcome can be changed if I am unfit for work

B) I should be sat in my GP reception demanding to speak to a doctor to be signed fit to work

C) If I was fit enough to attend the hearing then I am fit enough to work

 

I am currently signed off with work related stress as I am under the constant impression they are trying to rid me, I have had procedures broken and been left in limbo (told I was having a capability hearing, it was delayed 8 months - during which I was constantly threatened with it), clashes with management

 

Are Employers legally allowed to pressure you into getting a return to work note?

 

They know I'm not fit enough to work, I had a complete mental breakdown after an argument with the HR representative which completely destroyed me again

 

I just feel like I shouldn't be returning to such a place but obviously, needs must.

[papasmurf1cx]

No They cannot tell your doctor to sign you fit when you are not.

 

The problem they have is that they are perhaps legally liable for your condition and by getting you back into work they can say that you recovered and therefore reduce any liability they have regarding compensation. Being sick increases that liability should you take them to a Tribunal.

 

You need to get the threads linked. I will inform the mods. Try and keep queries re this on the one thread it is not a new subject.

[seanamarts]

Two threads merged.

[citizenB]

You had 3 threads in connection with your situation, although they were different questions. It is believed that consistent advice can be given if the whole story is in one package.

 

I have merged the 3 threads for you

[insigniades]

@Mods - thanks

 

@papasmurf - What makes this issue worse is the fact that they're saying "The only reason we are not dismissing you is because we think you're fit for work - if you're not then we need to reconsider our decision" - that, as you will probably guess makes me feel worse!

[papasmurf1cx]

They are playing mind games with you. They want you to just give in and to be honest many people do as the mental trauma is great and people can't stand it. You have to decide what kind of person you are. There is no shame in giving in to preserve your health.

 

When my wife and I went through it we decided that sticking to principled stands and advice were the honest thing for us... bullies & bullying organisations find it really difficult to stand up against principle. The only down side is that the little people (you and me) tend to give up because they have no support ie financial and moral support. If you have support and the stomach for a fight then stick to principle.

[insigniades]

They can keep trying to play mind games, I'm not as weak as they think - if my doctor doesn't think I aren't going back - the past 2 times I have been to the doctor he has said "What do you want me to do?" - I had an easy opportunity to say "Sign me off work" but instead I told him I wasn't putting words in his mouth and I wanted his opinion - both times he said he thinks I am under intolerable pressure and shouldn't be in that situation.

 

To be honest I don't want to go back, since I've been there I've put up with 1+ year of bullying which climaxed when I went off sick with stress - that then ended in a mediation session with the person I was having trouble with - since that I have been told I was going to have a capability hearing - 8 months later still nothing so I put a grievance in as they were threatening me - as soon as the grievance went in I received my invite to a capability hearing.

 

The letter I've received from them after the hearing states that they do not accept the reasons I am off sick as work related and apparently - the reason it was delayed 8 months was out of leniency - funny that considering I was constantly threatened, nothing lenient about threats.

[honeybee13]

The letter I've received from them after the hearing states that they do not accept the reasons I am off sick as work related and apparently - the reason it was delayed 8 months was out of leniency - funny that considering I was constantly threatened, nothing lenient about threats.

 

Hello there.

 

Not accepting the reasons for you being off sick isn't quite the same as saying you're not ill, although you may have covered this earlier in your thread. I can see that they wouldn't want to accept that it's work-related because that could pave the way to a claim. Appalling behaviour by them though, I can understand you wouldn't want to go back. Are you saying you'd prefer to walk away with something [if you can] rather than just resigning to suit them?

 

My best, HB

[insigniades]

Hi Honeybee, thanks for your response.

 

I would love to be able to afford to just resign but as you will know it isn't that simple.

 

I would give anything right now to be able to leave AND have the money to live off for a few months whilst I found a new job.

 

I'm interviewing as much as I can at the moment but the first company screwed me about which has knocked my confidence further.