DVLA getting sneaky, just got back from court, not happy!

[ZENTRIX9]

Ok a bit of backgrounf info.

I sold my car and posted the slip off to the DVLA. I didnt get a receipt in the 4 weeks and didnt contact the.

I got a "Requisition" letter from them and pleaded not guilty and sent it to the Prosecutor at the DVLA, not the court. I was waiting for a reply before the court date as I had informed them in a letter attached with the not guilty plea that I would be on holiday and would not be able to attend. Nothing came and I was found guilty in my absence.

I rang the court when I got back as there was a notice of a fine collection and collection order on the mat. I applied to re-open the case due to the circumstances.

 

Today was the court date. I waited 3 hours before being called in, I told them that I had posted the letter to the DVLA first class and that I had done what I had been asked. The DVLA rep said it wasnt good enough, I then quoted section 7 of the interpretation act, the clerk then told me that earlier in the day someone else had been found guilty because the court had decided that on the requisition it stated that I had "failed to forthwith DELIVER notification to the secretary of state" and because of the word DELIVER it didnt apply. After a bit of arguing it out and banging my head on a brick wall one of the judges said as it was late he would have to hurry it up as he needed to leave to sort his car out!

So I had 2 choices, adjournment or dont take it further and maybe get the fine reduced from £250!

I have had no wages for 2 years, living on tax credits, I am self employed and havent made a profit in the 2 years, how can I pay a fine!

 

I asked for it to be adjourned so I could get some advice from some fellow Caggers.

 

Now I am back at the office I have looked on the back of a V5 and it states "RETURN the page opposite"

I think the DVLA rep had drawn attention away from "RETURN" and focused on the "DELIVER" on the requisition letter so she can get the judges on her side.

 

Can anybody help as I cant afford a fine.

[gezwee]

Your defence should/would we The interpretation act 1978 S.7......... you have returned the V5C, it is not tortious upon the sender to ensure receipt is accurately recorded. If posted 1st class it is deemed served at day 2. The DVLA would need to prove to the court that you did not post the document...... yep, pretty hard task - lol

 

Gez

[Sidewinder]

Absolutely. There is no statutory requirement to send by Recorded Delivery or obtain proof of postage, and once posted, the document is deemed served* by First Class post after 2 days.

 

*S.7 Interpretation Act 1978

 

"Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (where the expression 'serve' or the expression 'give' or 'send' or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post"

 

You need a witness to having posted the document or swear an affidavit to that effect and that is your defence. Whilst the DVLA may point to the fact that they state that YOU must inform THEM of not receiving an acknowledgement within four weeks, that does not carry any legal weight as there is no power in the Statute which REQUIRES you to do so. They have to PROVE that they did not receive the document.

[Raykay]

That is typical of the DVLA, they cannot prove that you didn't send the document, which is what is required by the the Interpretation Act, so they try their 'you cannot prove it was delivered' argument - there is no requirement to prove it was delivered, they have to prove you didn't send it. As Sidewinder has said, 'serve', 'give', 'send' 'or any other expression', they expect it to be sent by post, they even give a postal address!!!

[ZENTRIX9]

Thanks, but how can I get it across to judges who dont understand the interpretation act and listen to the woffle from the DVLA

[Raykay]

I assume that the DVLA prosecutor has not supplied a signed statement from the Secretary of State that he has not received delivery of the notification!!

 

The Secretary of State has a government department to assist him carry out his duties, part of that department is the DVLA at Swansea who maintain the details of vehicles that are registered under the Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994, and the recorded keepers of those vehicles.

 

They supply the registered keeper with a form - V5C - with those details. On that form and on the direct gov.uk website it gives instructions how to deliver notification to the DVLA, on behalf of the Secretary of State, changes to those details.

 

Those instructions are to send it to the DVLA at Swansea, and they supply a postal address. As they require it to be sent by post, s.7 Interpretation Act 1978 applies and they have to prove that you did not send it, not that you have to prove that it was delivered.

[angryweasel]

Have a look through this :- http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?250087-DVLA-quot-pettit-v-mitchell-quot-defence&highlight=angryweasel

 

Worked for me.

[madsam]

The DVLA have no evidence to support their false claims, therefore the DVLA find you guilty. Been there. The crooked DVLA, and their crooked minions at their crooked work as always.

[patdavies]

Hang on a moment.

 

The OP states in the first post that he sent of 'the slip' to DVLA.

 

This is wrong. He should send the V5 to DVLA; 'the slip' goes to the new keeper

[Gick]

ZENTRIX9,

 

I agree that the prosecutor appears to be trying to confuse the issue by using the wrong term. However, your original post has anomalies. You refer to the 'slip' (as Pat Davies has noted in post #9) yet you later refer to a V5 (as does P D).

 

The V5 is a two part document that requires the New Keeper to notify acquisition. It has been replaced by the V5c which does have the 'New Keeper' slip used to retax if required, and identify the vehicle for the new owner. This is not sent to DVLA.

 

With the V5c the Seller is required to notify the disposal of the vehicle, a change that came about as new owners were failing to register the change in order to avoid various penalties, e.g. speeding fines, parking charges and use in crime. There are still some V5's in existence, mainly where vehicles have been owned by the same person for a number of years or which have been in storage for a long time.

 

Unfortunately many people refer to the current document by the generic term, which does add confusion when opinion is being sought. Are you able to clarify which document you had and precisely which part you sent to DVLA?

 

Regards

[ZENTRIX9]

I can confirm that I sent the V5 to DVLA and the slip given to the new owner, just a slip of the tongue when describing the "document"

[2ltr16valve]

Sounds like the DVLA's normal tactics of twisting things to suit them, cake and eat it springs to mind.

[Gick]

ZENT RIX9,

 

Sorry if I sound 'picky', but you have again said that you sent the V5 to DVLA, having given the slip to the new keeper. I am sure that you mean that you sent the V5c. Unfortunately it is this sort of 'slip of the tongue' error that a DVLA prosecutor will use to 'muddy' the water when you return to court. As in my previous post, were it a V5, the onus is on the new keeper to send it in.

 

You mention that you did not ring them after 4 weeks of not having received notification of the cessation of responsibility for the vehicle. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL REQUIREMENT. It is a recommendation only and any mention of it by the prosecutor should be argued against strongly on that basis.

 

As Ray kay in post #6 points out s.7 Interpretation Act 1978 applies, anything placed in the care of the Royal Mail is deemed delivered. You only need to continue to maintain that you posted it, date and place would be handy, on oath; it is then for the prosecutor to prove that you did not. Provided that you do not lose your temper with the prosecutor trying to call you a liar, sometimes difficult I know, show yourself as a reasonable person of probity and you should succeed.

 

Remember that you will have the closing argument when you will be able to reiterate that you have complied with the requirements of Section 22 of The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 viz

Change of keeper:

22.—(1) This regulation applies where—

(a)there is a change in the keeper of a vehicle;

(b)a vehicle registration document has been issued in respect of the vehicle in Great Britain on or after 24th March 1997; and

©the new keeper is not a vehicle trader.

 

(2) The registered keeper of the vehicle—

(a)if the registration document issued in respect of the vehicle is in his possession, shall deliver to the new keeper that part of the document marked as the part which is to be given to the new keeper; and

(b)shall forthwith deliver the remainder of the registration document to the Secretary of State, duly completed to include the following—

(i)the name and address of the new keeper;

(ii)the date on which the vehicle was sold or transferred to the new keeper;

(iii)a declaration signed by the registered keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraph (i) are correct to the best of his knowledge and that the details given in accordance with paragraph (ii) are correct; and

(iv)a declaration signed by the new keeper that the details given in accordance with paragraphs (i) and (ii) are correct.

 

The above is all you are required to do.

 

This closing argument should be given from the dock if you were required to stand there (in minor offences the defendant is often permitted to stand where a defence solicitor would be), which differentiates from your giving evidence from the witness box. You cannot be cross examined by the prosecutor, he has had his say!

 

This opportunity is usually indicated by the presiding magistrate (you said judge in your OP but I suspect that this was at magistrates court, a Judge sitting in the Crown Court would not be 'conned' by the clerk to the court saying that the defence in a previous case had been thrown out so yours should also) asking if you have anything further to add.

 

Try to be brief but assertive on the point of delivering by the means of posting. The address provided is a postal address. It is not a location whereby you can hand deliver, thus s7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 does apply.

 

All the best,

 

Regards

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gick

[Gick]

Dear XENTRIX9,

 

I have sent you a private message with suggested points for when you reappear in court. This is just in case the DVLA are monitoring the forum!

[ZENTRIX9]

Many thanks Gick, I think that will be very helpfull. I have to reply to the court if I want to take things further or submit a guilty plea before it goes any further. I think my mind is made up now :o)

 

thanks

[paul kennedy]

Many thanks Gick, I think that will be very helpfull. I have to reply to the court if I want to take things further or submit a guilty plea before it goes any further. I think my mind is made up now :o)

 

thanks

 

Hi I am in a similar position. I lost at the magistrates court before I discovered this forum. The DVLA prosecutor managed to convince the non legally trained magistrates he had a case he didnt really have. I appealled and have a date at the crown court this friday. A bit scary but DVLA have recently written to me trying to get me to agree not to appear and have written to the judge with a request to drop the case.

 

I have not accepted this as I want a clear ruling that might be useful for others and send a clear message to the DVLA to stop misusing the legal system in this way.

 

Challenge the DVLA and I believe you will win too . I am using interpretation act 1978 and various other defences that I have discovered thanks to contributers to this forum. Best wishes Paul

[ZENTRIX9]

Thanks for that Paul it sounds very encouraging. I would be very interested in the outcome and what defense you used. Hope to see the post that you kicked their ass good and proper! Good luck ;o)

[postggj]

No wonder dvla do not want this to go to crown court on appeal

 

once judgement has been rendered ,

 

it then becomes case law

 

o-dear dvla

 

please update when you have your answer on friday

[madsam]

Hi I am in a similar position. I lost at the magistrates court before I discovered this forum. The DVLA prosecutor managed to convince the non legally trained magistrates he had a case he didnt really have. I appealled and have a date at the crown court this friday. A bit scary but DVLA have recently written to me trying to get me to agree not to appear and have written to the judge with a request to drop the case.

 

I have not accepted this as I want a clear ruling that might be useful for others and send a clear message to the DVLA to stop misusing the legal system in this way.

 

Challenge the DVLA and I believe you will win too . I am using interpretation act 1978 and various other defences that I have discovered thanks to contributers to this forum. Best wishes Paul

 

I really applaud you Paul, for challenging these crooks, I know first hand the DVLA have been acting unlawfully to extort money from innocent members of the public for far too long. I have twice been a victim of their false claims to try to bully me into paying that I have proven to be fraudulent, while their bullying tactics work on so many others, the only response from DVLA is to keep pretending like they're incapable of error - even when it's been proven they have erred. Take it all the way and don't give up for everybody's sake, and keep all results public - make sure as many people know about our victories and their defeats as possible. Write to newspapers, BBC, Sky, etc. to expose them. Their cracks are starting to become more apparent.

[patdavies]

Another string to your bow is the Postal Union Act (or something like that...) which makes it very clear that with Royal Mail, unlike the universal postal providers in most other countries, any letter becomes the property of the recipient at the point it is entered into the postal system.

[SURFBOY]

Any updates on fridays court case?

[Gick]

Dear Surfboy,

 

suggest you visit

DVLA Failure to notify Advice required.

 

This being the thread started by Paul Kennedy.

 

Regards

[ZENTRIX9]

Update.

 

Just got back from court which I had to attend so I could re-open my case. Just before I went in I had a chat with the DVLA so she could speed things up. Went through with it very quickly and told her I had looked into it in detail, that there is no law to make me contact them if I dont get a receipt within a few weeks of posting off. She said ok that would save some time. 15 mins later I went into court. They read through all the details and the magistrates said they would open the case again. Great I thought, then the DVLA lady stood up and said "Case withdrawn". I wanted it to go further so we could get DVLA dragged over the coals and show people their bully tactics dont work but they wont give me the satisfaction. Looks like they really dont want anyone to fight them in court.

 

Just a note, about 6 people went in to see the DVLA, I was the only one who sat back down, the others left, I can only presume that they agreed to pay a reduced fine which I was offered. Numpties!!!

[postggj]

Exactly the same happened to me

 

seems a pattern is developing

[marlon-dingle]

Hi,

Just been to magistrates court in Sheffield and thought I would share my experience with you.

I had been summons for failing to notify a change of owner.

When the summons arrived (still trying to get me to pay a fine, sorry penalty first) I filled it out and said

i would plead not guilty.

I did my research on here - s7 Interpretation Act 1978 and a Freedom of Information request that proved they

don't receipt in returned mail.

I arrived at court and all 40 names were for DVLA "offences" but at the start time of 10am there were only 2 of us present.

I was sat outside and this woman in a suit came up and asked me who I was and was I defending myself etc.

She then looked down at her paperwork and said my case had been withdrawn.

I was furious because I wanted my day in court.

I said I was still going in as I was not leaving until someone had paid my costs.

When I went in,the court usher and another guy were in there plus this aforementioned woman.

I asked if the DVLA prosecutor was present and the same woman replied it was her.

(So basically they "interview you" before you go in without telling you they are the prosecution.

I believe she saw my evidence and knew she would lose so she told me it has been withdrawn and I should

have had a letter in the post.

The 2 magistrates entered the room and because I was in there the DVLA woman had to say that she had withdrawn my case.

If that had been true my name would have been removed from the court list beforehand so I don't believe this.

Basically if you turn up to defend they will run a mile but the other 38 didn't bother so would have presumably been

found guilty and fined..........a good money making scaam!!

I asked the magistrate to award me costs and was told they would only pay my travel and not my lost working day.

So all in all, it cost me a days pay but at least they never got my money.

NEVER EVER PAY UP,FIGHT THEM AND THEY WILL BACK DOWN AS THEY CAN'T PROVE YOU NEVER POSTED THE LETTER.