Ingeus

[jasta11]

Hi,

 

During the last meeting, I was instructed through the MAN to Register with 10 Agencies..

 

I had this when I was at Ingeus - they asked me to visit 5 agencies in person (which I'd normally have argued against but I had to shop in town anyway that day so I let them pay my expenses ). I just collected a business card from each agency to show the advisor - who didn't even look at them anyway. Yet another pointless exercise so that they could show the DWP they were being 'active' towards the client.

 

Regarding obtaining employer feedback, if it's a vacancy you found yourself then the Jobcentre can't request feedback from the employer - they can only do this if they found you the vacancy ie it's a notified vacancy which you were mandated to apply for. I would imagine the work provider is also not allowed to solicit feedback without express permission either. They'll probably try and use this as an excuse just to get the name & address of the employers you've applied to so that they can claim an outcome payment if you get a job.

[Eowyn01]

I had this when I was at Ingeus - they asked me to visit 5 agencies in person (which I'd normally have argued against but I had to shop in town anyway that day so I let them pay my expenses ). I just collected a business card from each agency to show the advisor - who didn't even look at them anyway. Yet another pointless exercise so that they could show the DWP they were being 'active' towards the client.

 

Regarding obtaining employer feedback, if it's a vacancy you found yourself then the Jobcentre can't request feedback from the employer - they can only do this if they found you the vacancy ie it's a notified vacancy which you were mandated to apply for. I would imagine the work provider is also not allowed to solicit feedback without express permission either. They'll probably try and use this as an excuse just to get the name & address of the employers you've applied to so that they can claim an outcome payment if you get a job.

 

Thanks.

 

I have heard from others that they have Mandated candidates to obtain feedback from employers, not only for live vacancies, but also for dead vacancies, with no progress, to establish why an application had failed.

[osdset]

Feedback, if anyone can actually get a company to provide it is only useful if it highlights where the candidate went wrong. I imagine most firms would simply state that someone more qualified or with more experience was invited to interview, or got the position.

If companies wrote or e mailed back 'well your CV was not up to scratch, or your interview technique sucks' the feedback would at least give some pointers in the right direction, I can't see employers spending the time to go into that kind of detail.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

If a candidate provides, within their application, sufficient information that they could do the job, then I am not entirely convinced that any employer should be breached for any feedback over any application, be it after the interview, or arising from any stage of sifting.

 

Even if an employer did provide feedback, a personnel officer is hardly likely to provide any indication as to why, in their opinion, they believed that "the candidate went wrong".

[kosebamse]

Can one undertake part-time education whilst on the Work Programme?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Can one undertake part-time education whilst on the Work Programme?

Yes.... however, you will need to report this to Job Centre Plus, specify the start date and end date, and provide a copy of the Learning Agreement. However, it is not necessary for you to report such issues to any Welfare To Work organisation.

Edited September 9, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[kosebamse]

I did report to the JCP and they told they've got nothing to do with it and I need to report this to WP contractor.

[Mr.P]

Can one undertake part-time education whilst on the Work Programme?

Yes.... however, you will need to report this to Job Centre Plus, specify the start date and end date, and provide a copy of the Learning Agreement.

I did report to the JCP and they told they've got nothing to do with it and I need to report this to WP contractor.

 

To cover your back and bypass the incompetence of the WP provider, put it in writing to the JCP. You have then complied with the obligation to inform the DWP/JCP of a change in circumstances should they try to stitch you for an overpayment in the future. Depending on your hours of availability stated in your JSAg, you might need to get it amended.

 

A short letter to the WP contractor in question simply stating that "I am unavailable for mandatory appointments or activities on " will suffice - They do not control your life, so no real need to tell them why you are unavailable. Should the WP contractor then try to book you in for a mandatory activity, the DWP/JCP already have "good reason" on file.

[san_d]

Reading this thread made me understand how lucky I am being with a WP [pejorative word removed] who is quite reasonable and never threatened any mandation or sanction. They have actually found me a 3 months agency contract and it's not too bad. Ingeus must be by far the nastiest WP [pejorative word removed] on the planet.

Edited September 9, 2013 by honeybee13

[Mr.P]

You want to see what A4e are like on a good day.... Then again, maybe not.

[kosebamse]

Mr.P, thanks for a suggestion, that's a brilliant idea! Do you know how best to go about composing such a letter to JCP? Should any of their staff sign it? Is it better to give it to them or post as signed for?

[antone]

Mr.P, thanks for a suggestion, that's a brilliant idea! Do you know how best to go about composing such a letter to JCP? Should any of their staff sign it? Is it better to give it to them or post as signed for?

 

Perhaps best to discuss it with your JCP adviser when you sign on. You could hand them a letter at the same time, and they would also want to complete their form to record the fact that you're doing part time study. A letter might look like:

 

Mr J Smith

23 Acacia Avenue

Anytown

ZX1 1XZ

 

Date Here

 

NiNo: Your NI Number

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I am writing to inform you of my intention to commence a part time course of study on . The course will take place at and is titled and will involve tuition of XX hrs per week. I enclose a copy of my Learning Agreement as confirmation of this.

 

The hours of tuition will be . During the time I am on this course, I will continue to actively seek and be available for work.

 

If you need any further information, please don't hesitate to write to me at the address above.

 

Best Regards,

 

 

 

John Smith

[RaeUK]

Reading this thread made me understand how lucky I am being with a WP [pejorative word removed] who is quite reasonable ...

It makes me realise how fortunate I am to be in the ESA Support Group. Which is a sad indictment on how it is to be unemployed today. How on earth you all cope with this awful system I'll never know.

I salute all of you and, whilst it ain't much, wish you all the best.

Edited September 9, 2013 by honeybee13

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I did report to the JCP and they told they've got nothing to do with it and I need to report this to WP contractor.

The Job Centre Plus Front Line Adviser remains ill-informed.... unfortunately, if you fail to declare the change in circumstances to Job Centre Plus, including completing the relevant form, then you may end up with a Sanction Doubt.

 

As previously advised, raise the subject again with someone in Job Centre Plus - and if you do not get any job, report the course to the JCP Manager within a letter. Provided that the Total Study Time is less than (I think) 16 hours, you should not find that it has a negative impact on your claim for benefit.

 

Depending on the type of course - such as an evening class, you may find that your attendance is required at a time which does not conflict with any Welfare To Work appointment, and they may continue to live in blissful ignorance.

Edited September 9, 2013 by RebeccaPidgeon
Additional Information Submitted

[kosebamse]

In other words, I'm not obliged to disclose this information to my WP provider, apart from the fact that I'm not available at such and such time due to certain commitments that are well within the knowledge of the JCP?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

In other words, I'm not obliged to disclose this information to my WP provider, apart from the fact that I'm not available at such and such time due to certain commitments that are well within the knowledge of the JCP?

Your contract is with Job Centre Plus through the Job Seekers Agreement ....and provided that you keep them in the loop, and make a full disclosure, it is entirely your discretion as to whether you admit your involvement with the course to any W2W outfit.

[kosebamse]

Perhaps best to discuss it with your JCP adviser when you sign on. You could hand them a letter at the same time, and they would also want to complete their form to record the fact that you're doing part time study. A letter might look like:

 

Thanks for the template, Antone! Yes, during my last appointment with advisor I presented him with a filled in form ES567sJP. He looked at it, flipped through the pages, looked like he wasn't sure what to do about it, then decided it's not JCP responsibility as I'm on a WP and should talk to them. Thus, the question - should I in my letter to the JCP point out the fact I'm providing them with the letter instead of form ES567sJP because their staff didn't accept the form?

[citizenB]

PLEASE NOTE:

 

Whatever your feelings are towards the advisors, we ask that you do not use derogatory terms for them.

 

Apparently it is necessary to remind people of the above.. !!

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Thanks for the template, Antone! Yes, during my last appointment with advisor I presented him with a filled in form ES567sJP. He looked at it, flipped through the pages, looked like he wasn't sure what to do about it, then decided it's not JCP responsibility as I'm on a WP and should talk to them. Thus, the question - should I in my letter to the JCP point out the fact I'm providing them with the letter instead of form ES567sJP because their staff didn't accept the form?

I suggest that you hand in the letter, addressed to the Job Centre Manager, send a copy to the Regional Director of Job Centre Plus, and courteously point out that you are also sending a copy to your MP fir their deliberations.

[Mr.P]

The Job Centre Plus Front Line Adviser remains ill-informed.... unfortunately, if you fail to declare the change in circumstances to Job Centre Plus, including completing the relevant form, then you may end up with a Sanction Doubt.

 

From WP Provider Guidance, Chapter 5

Participant notifies provider of change of circumstances

1. You must notify Jobcentre Plus if the participant (or their representative)

tells you that:

• they have started work (this includes any part time work)

• they are sick

• the participant has died

• they have had an accident or been involved in an incident on your premises.

 

Actions

• Notify Jobcentre Plus of the change using the Change of Circumstances form (WP 07b)

• Where a participant informs you of a change of circumstance other than those listed above you are to direct them to report the change to Jobcentre Plus.

 

Consequence Failure to notify Jobcentre Plus may result in an overpayment of benefit to the participant.

 

Education, part time or full time, constitutes a "change in circumstances". Once the JCP has been notified, it is their responsibility to inform the provider via a WP07b - Doing it this way ensures that should the WP provider be foolish enough to mandate you to participate on a date that would conflict with your course, any benefit doubt raised should get overturned at the first post.

[Paulo83]

Oh I love Ingeus.

 

I went for an appointment there yesterday just to do a general job search. At the end of it, I was handed a couple of letters stating that because I had missed the said activities (the non-mandated ones I had a doubt raised for, and then dropped), I had been booked on them again. Only this time I have been mandated to attend, and my advisor had even HIGHLIGHTED "this is a mandatory appointment." Strangely amusing, but somewhat annoying.

[Mr.P]

Can a single MAN encapsulate many activities.

 

Came across this DWP memo: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/work-programme-memo-122.pdf

 

• You have the option to include more than one mandatory activity on a MAN, but you must ensure that each activity is clearly set out and to avoid confusion we recommend that the number of activities be limited to no more than 5 activities per MAN.
  
• It is important to understand that if you choose to have more than one activity on a MAN then you run the risk that if you raise a sanction doubt, but the claimant appeals on the grounds that they found the MAN confusing, (possibly due to the amount of activities being deemed confusing) then you could lose an appeal.
  
• It remains our recommendation therefore that it is still best practice to restrict the number of mandatory activities to one activity per MAN.
  
• Each MAN must be in writing and contain the relevant conditionality and sanctions warning.
  

It is worth reading the DWP live Memos as many of them contain the latest "rules" that providers should be following.

[Flickyhecky]

I'm now off Ingeus and onto the "Post Work Programme Support" part.

 

Ingeus sent me a letter saying that they were going to send an "exit report" to the JC, letter doesn't mention at all about me not turning up for a year and a half!

 

So i'm wondering if they are going to drop me right in the ikky stuff (which will also drop them right in it too!), or will they fabricate it and give me a glowing report?

 

I DID get sanctioned by the way, for 2 weeks, i missed one of my appointments last June, but because of the new sanction rules it didn't happened until last month, so hoping that's all i'll have.

 

If they sanctioned me back in March 2012 then i probably would've toed the line after that, serves them right really!

[RebeccaPidgeon]

I'm now off Ingeus and onto the "Post Work Programme Support" part.

 

Ingeus sent me a letter saying that they were going to send an "exit report" to the JC, letter doesn't mention at all about me not turning up for a year and a half!

 

So i'm wondering if they are going to drop me right in the ikky stuff (which will also drop them right in it too!), or will they fabricate it and give me a glowing report?

 

I DID get sanctioned by the way, for 2 weeks, i missed one of my appointments last June, but because of the new sanction rules it didn't happened until last month, so hoping that's all i'll have.

 

If they sanctioned me back in March 2012 then i probably would've toed the line after that, serves them right really!

You should note that members of the Hit Squad, covering Post Work Programme Support, are essentially ordinary JCP Front Line Advisers, but no more, and are not really specialists. Also, note that the requirements for Mandatory Work Activity have changed, and depending on whether the JCP FLA has had a bad day, could send all candidates onto Mandatory Work Activity - which may be delivered by Ingeus in your area.

 

Analyse http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/man-work-guidance.shtml

 

Ingeus deliver MWA in CPA5 (Midlands) and CPA9 (North East).

 

If you are referred, the following sections are worth noting

 

3.13 It is not necessary (although it’s desirable wherever possible) for the placement to be in the same sector or type of work as the claimant’s job goal, as MWA is designed to help the claimant develop disciplines associated with employment. Claimants cannot choose their placements.

 

3.15 Placements must be additional to any existing or expected vacancies. You must ensure that employers are not taking advantage of MWA as a source of labour at the expense of employing workers in the open labour market.

[Mr.P]

So i'm wondering if they are going to drop me right in the ikky stuff (which will also drop them right in it too!), or will they fabricate it and give me a glowing report?

 

Nope. They will churn out a generic report that has been used countless times. The following memo is intended to improve the nature of the reports, but it probably hasn't filtered down to the front lines yet.

 

In May this year DWP began to issue requests for Exit Reports in respect of those claimants returning to Jobcentre Plus after 104 weeks on the Work Programme.

The clerical Exit Report process has been problematic and whilst our priority is to introduce an electronic process, a group has been set up to work together to urgently resolve some of the issues raised. One of the issues raised is that valuable time is being spent to action reminders when it could be spent completing the Exit report.

 

This Memo outlines the areas to be addressed and the immediate decision taken in respect of the reminder process following talking to both District Managers and providers this week.

 

Summary and action

Jobcentre Plus will stop sending you the Exit report reminders from Monday 1st July until further notice. Management Information will still be collected and monitored in terms of the achievement of the 10 day target for completing and returning the Exit Reports and this information will be shared with Jobcentre Plus colleagues.

 

The group will also:

 

• Investigate the possibility of providers receiving Exit Report requests more directly
  
• Seek to introduce a more user friendly Exit Report template
  
• Conduct some sample checking of the quality of the Exit reports
  
• Improve the guidance around the timescales for all activities within the process
  

In other words, the DWP find the exit reports submitted to date to be of poor quality of of little (if any) value. Reading between the lines of the above memo, they are telling providers to pull their socks up and submit individual reports within the required time frame.