Vodafone Incorrect Default *WON-out of court settlement*

[philharg]

Hi philharg,

 

Apologies for the delay with getting back to you.

 

I can confirm that we have replied to your previous letter which you will receive through the post shortly.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

Still not received the later today so at earliest I will receive it tomorrow which is obiously 10 days after you received mine with a 7 day request for a response. I suggest you take action on the LBA within the time frame this time which you will be receiving tomorrow/Monday.

 

A draft of the particulars of the claim has already been completed and this WILL be issued after 7 days of receipt of delivery, I will not be waiting for you to again apolgise for a late reply.

Edited July 1, 2011 by philharg

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi philharg,

 

Although I'm not in the office next week I've flagged this with my colleagues so that it gets picked up and dealt with as soon as possible.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

[philharg]

Hi philharg,

 

Although I'm not in the office next week I've flagged this with my colleagues so that it gets picked up and dealt with as soon as possible.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

 

Ok well you received my letter before action letter yesterday and I didn't receive your reply yesterday so I will check again tomorrow.

 

philharg

[philharg]

Still no reply received in the post. Why don't companies use recorded delivery when trying to meet deadlines?

[philharg]

Received my first communication back from Vodafone today.

 

They have stated that they are unable to provide further clarification as to their communication with the credit reference agencies:

 

"... the information you are seeking does not exist in the form you imagine. What I mean by this is that Vodafone does not send letters to credit reference agencies providing them with a list of debtors or defaulters. The process is entirely automated. At the end of every month our technology systems automitaclly forward date updates to the credit reference agencies' technology systems. A similar process occurs when we disclose data to debt collection agencies. These automatic updates are sent as a very large, single file and are written in code. Although Vodafone retains a copy of the file sent, it is archived as a back-upp copy only.

 

I therefore cannot provide you with copies of any correspondence between Vodafone and the CRA's or debt collectors as this does not exist (and indeed never did).

 

Vodafone is not legally required to comply with a subject access request where to do so would involve disproportionate effort. In the circumstances, we consider it would involve disproportionate for Vodafone to attempt to extract one customer's data from the back-up copy of the file which contains data on millions of customers and is written in code - even if this is in fact techincally possible."

 

So, Vodafone cannot apparantly tell me if it was them that put the default back on again for the 2nd and 3rd time because it is hidden in an automated system.

 

Wonder what a judge would think of the strength's of Vodafone's system, can't record who they are putting the default against... can't record when.... can't check if it is correct.

 

Sounds like Vodafone are trying to hide their incompetance. It is still your automated system, which you designed which has a determental effect on your customers. (Or non-customer in my case).

 

Vodafone still haven't responded to any of my requests or LBA. They have until Saturday for myself to have received such a response.

[dx100uk]

one must ask one's self WHY ARE THE BACKING IT UP THEN???????????

 

if they cant access the info , then what is the purpose of the back-up ....sniff sniff something smells here.

 

i think this has long gone passed the time to cloud the issue with techno mumbo jumbo.

 

very suprised

 

if the boot had been on the other foot and the case the otherway around

 

i bet they COULD get the data to nail the customer out if THEY wanted it!!

 

very poor

 

all data must be helb for 6yrs in a format that can be used.....obv this lot think diff!

 

dx

 

 

dx

[locutus]

one must ask one's self WHY ARE THE BACKING IT UP THEN???????????

 

if they cant access the info , then what is the purpose of the back-up ....sniff sniff something smells here.

 

i think this has long gone passed the time to cloud the issue with techno mumbo jumbo.

 

very suprised

 

if the boot had been on the other foot and the case the otherway around

 

i bet they COULD get the data to nail the customer out if THEY wanted it!!

 

very poor

 

all data must be helb for 6yrs in a format that can be used.....obv this lot think diff!

 

dx

 

 

dx

Such a good post you had to sign it twice eh DX?

 

I feel the same, if their systems can backup the data, they can obviously retrieve the data... that is the whole point of a backup, to restore it if it's needed.

 

I think the smoke and mirrors are an attempt to mimic Houdini and escape the impossible.... Not this time methinks

[2Grumpy]

Received my first communication back from Vodafone today.

 

They have stated that they are unable to provide further clarification as to their communication with the credit reference agencies:

 

"... the information you are seeking does not exist in the form you imagine. What I mean by this is that Vodafone does not send letters to credit reference agencies providing them with a list of debtors or defaulters. The process is entirely automated. At the end of every month our technology systems automitaclly forward date updates to the credit reference agencies' technology systems. A similar process occurs when we disclose data to debt collection agencies. These automatic updates are sent as a very large, single file and are written in code. Although Vodafone retains a copy of the file sent, it is archived as a back-upp copy only.

 

I therefore cannot provide you with copies of any correspondence between Vodafone and the CRA's or debt collectors as this does not exist (and indeed never did).

 

Vodafone is not legally required to comply with a subject access request where to do so would involve disproportionate effort. In the circumstances, we consider it would involve disproportionate for Vodafone to attempt to extract one customer's data from the back-up copy of the file which contains data on millions of customers and is written in code - even if this is in fact techincally possible."

 

So, Vodafone cannot apparantly tell me if it was them that put the default back on again for the 2nd and 3rd time because it is hidden in an automated system.

 

Wonder what a judge would think of the strength's of Vodafone's system, can't record who they are putting the default against... can't record when.... can't check if it is correct.

 

Sounds like Vodafone are trying to hide their incompetance. It is still your automated system, which you designed which has a determental effect on your customers. (Or non-customer in my case).

 

Vodafone still haven't responded to any of my requests or LBA. They have until Saturday for myself to have received such a response.

 

I can understand where they are coming from. To restore the data from several files & search for a single entry in each file & extract the information might take an hour or 2

Lets face it, the CRAs manage to read the files they create & send to them, so why can't Vodaphone find the files in the date range in question & pull out a record or two?

Don't they have any competent people there?

[reallymadwoman]

If this goes to court they will be required to produce the information therefore not producing it now could be considered to be obstructive.

 

In my case the whole defence basically failed because they didn't disclose what had been sent to CRAs and when. It is therefore a very dangerous tactic.

[philharg]

I think they are taking liberties not disclosing this information.

 

How can they record default's against people without recording it on their account that they have?

 

They have 24 hours to respond to my letter before action. I'm not holding my breath.

[philharg]

Vodafone responded to my LBA yesterday stating the following:

 

"It has always been Vodafone's position that in the event that you provide evidence of your losses that we will review our position. As you have now quantified such losses I have taken further instructions and I am happy to agree to the losses you have claimed. Whilst you have not provided a costing for your hours we have applied a rate of £15 per hour to cover the time that you estimate you have spent deailing with this matter.

 

Accordingly, we calculate these losses at £426.80 and are therefore fully prepared to offer you this sum in full and final settlement of this matter."

 

Also states a letter was sent addressing the points I made earlier about my credit file on the 1st July. Unfortunately I haven't received this letter so I am unaware still of their stance on this. If Lee see's this please could you resend the letter dated 1st July ASAP or email it too me instead so I know your stance on those points quicker.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi philharg,

 

Thanks for updating your thread to confirm that you've received our reply of 7th July.

 

In regard to my letter of 30th June I can confirm that I posted a copy to you yesterday afternoon.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[philharg]

So the piece of correspondence from Vodafone which I was missing has arrived:

 

Dear Mr

 

Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the above airtime account.

 

Having reviewed the points raised we would comment as follows:

 

For clarification, Vodafone took action on 10th May 2011 to delete the above airtime account from your credit file with Experian, Equifax and Callcredit.

All subsequent recording of the information removed was caused by Experian when they experienced issues with a Core Release update with their systems.

In the event that you require any further information regarding this we would recommend contacting them directly.

 

Evidence of the search O2 carried out is not inaccurate information.

Your credit file does not show that the application was rejected, but simply that a search was conducted.

This is not adverse or inaccurate information and so should remain on your credit file.

Vodafone is not able to have searches conducted by other organisations removed from your credit file and so should you wish for this to be reviewed further we would recommend making contact it with O2 directly.

 

We cannot confirm that all records held by the debt collection agencies have been destroyed as they may need to retain this information for their own legal purposes

(e.g. to prove that Vodafone instructed them to collect the debt and when we instructed them that the debt was no longer owed).

 

We can however confirm that we have instructed the debt collection agencies to update their records to show as no money is owed and that collection is not to be pursued.

 

Vodafone cannot provide a Certificate of destruction as we have a legitimate interest in retaining the information about your account (e.g. for tax purposes, to defend any potential litigation etc.).

 

However, we can again confirm that our systems have been updated to reflect that you do not owe Vodafone any money but we cannot confirm that all information about this has been destroyed.

 

For the reasons outlined above, we cannot provide a certificate of destruction from the debt collection agencies.

 

On the basis that we have not disclosed any information about you to O2 we are therefore not in a position to comment on whether or not O2 is willing to destroy any information they are holding about you.

 

In the event that you are concerned that O2 are holding inaccurate information about you then we would again recommend that you make contact with them to request that this information is updated or destroyed.

 

This would also apply to any other company who you believe to hold inaccurate information about you.

 

We have been clear that we are willing to offer you compensation for any loss you have suffered as a result of the information recorded on your credit file.

 

As we have previously stated, we do not believe that you are legally entitled to compensation for loss of opportunity but rather for direct financial loss.

 

We have requested evidence of your loss or damage and have stated that we would be happy to consider an offer of compensation upon the production of such evidence.

 

To date, you have not provided us with this evidence or any evidence as to why your initial request for compensation in the amount of £500 is justified.

 

You have stated that you were declined for a mobile phone contract with O2 as a result of the information placed on your credit file by Vodafone

but have provided no evidence that this has caused you a financial loss (for example, by requiring you to take out a mobile phone contract for a similar service but at a higher rate).

 

Similarly, you have stated you have been subject to higher motor vehicle insurance premiums as a result of the information on your credit file,

but have provided no evidence of the difference in premiums that you have been required to pay.

 

We therefore have no way of knowing whether your request for £500.00 is reasonable in the circumstances.

 

If you provide us with this evidence then we are happy to review our position in regard to your compensation claim further.

 

As such, we await further correspondence from you.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Lee XXXXXXWeb Relations"

 

Vodafone stating that to their knowledge I can not be compensated for a loss of opportunity only direct loss.

Maybe if this was the case we wouldn't have a credit reference system for which they get to play the Kingmaker.

 

They are now also clearly stating that it is Experian's fault for my 2nd and 3rd default's appearing.

 

I do not feel I can fully decide on this until I receive all the SAR information from Experian.

 

You have to remember that Vodafone have already refused to provide me with the information of the communication's they have had with Experian citing reasons that it is

lost in code. I still feel Vodafone are witholding information on this and Lee's explanation that it is due to a Core Release update from their systems....

(twice as well remember) well that really adds clarification to everyone doesn't it.

 

More time spent, more stress and yet Vodafone still see themselves as Angels.

 

Let us remember they still haven't even apologised yet for all this mess.

Edited July 13, 2011 by dx100uk
pers info edited out

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi philharg,

 

Whilst I appreciate your continued feelings and dissatisfaction over this I'm afraid there's no further information we can provide here.

 

Hopefully, the information you'll receive in reply to your SAR to Experian will include further details and/or an explanation in regard to how the default reappeared on the two occasions after we initially removed it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

[philharg]

Hi philharg,

 

Whilst I appreciate your continued feelings and dissatisfaction over this I'm afraid there's no further information we can provide here.

 

Hopefully, the information you'll receive in reply to your SAR to Experian will include further details and/or an explanation in regard to how the default reappeared on the two occasions after we initially removed it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

 

If it wasn't for Vodafone this default would never have existed in the first instance. Or is it Vodafone's stance that they disagree on this as well?

 

Your company has only been able to show that it can not provide the evidence of whether they did or did not put the subsequent default's onto the account. You cannot provide the evidence that you are the completely without fault... the default which went back on did exactly match the inccorect one which Vodafone unlawfully invented and entered in the first place, Experian did not create this information.

 

What happen's next time there is a "Core Release Update" and the default re-appears again? Are you actually saying that this information has never been completely deleted from the CRA's systems and will forever remain a liability? Correct? Because this is the only explanation which allows the information to have re-appeared...

 

It is clear for everyone to see the cavalier treatment of personal data by Vodafone and the subsequent way in which you expect the victim to chase up companies like Experian for evidence.

 

Vodafone will receive further correspondence in due course.

[philharg]

So re-updating now with the most recent developments:

 

Vodafone have failed to offer any compensation to me. They have only offered to pay my £425 in expenses since I learnt that the default had occured (hours working, phone calls + membership to credit referencies to keep an eye on the default's), this is not a form of compensation merely a covering of my most recent costs. This also came 4 days after the final date of my 2nd 7 day Letter Before Action anyway.

 

For this reason I have submitted County Court papers today. I will provide a further update on what their acknowledgement of this is in a further 16 days.

Edited July 26, 2011 by philharg
typo

[philharg]

Vodafone have indicated that they have an intention to defend the case in court and have 28 days from the service date to submit their defence.

 

However I have been away for the past week and have missed two Special Delivery letters posted to my address so Vodafone may well have tried to contact me.

 

I also go away again tomorrow morning for the remainder of this week so am unable to see what these two letters potentially contain. Hopefully my partner can pick them up for me when she is back in the country on Wednesday.

[silverfox1961]

It is usual for some companies to automaticvally defend thereby giving them time to either get their facts together or to make an offer. It is also known that some companies defend in the hope the claimant gets cold feet and discontinues.

 

My thinking is that the first letter may contain threats about VF's legal costs and the second an offer. I wait with baited breath

[philharg]

Well neither letter it turns out was actually from Vodafone. So I still await any correspondence which may come from them.

 

They have until the 25th August to submit their defence.

[philharg]

So to update for everyone....

 

I have received Vodafone's defence a couple of days ago.

 

The main of it is based around them stating they were lawfully allowed to enter because the contract was entered into. However the contract was never fully agreed because they couldn't port my number across.

 

For the first time in their defence they have placed the blame on Phones4u stating that Phones4u never notified them that the contract had not been completed fully.

 

With regards to Experian they haven't stated in their defence that the two subsequent entries onto my credit file were caused by Experian. They have only stated that their was some delay in their removal caused by Experian. They have stated that the entry of these two subsequent entries onto my credit file was lawful however! Even though it had already been established their was no debt.

 

Their defence here is rather muddled... they originaly stated it was Experian's fault... they are nwo going down the line that they were lawfully added because of the supposed "contract"... yet how could it be lawfully re-added if they had already admitted their was no debt... this would in turn make it unlawful again anyway?

 

Today I have notified both Phones4u and Experian that Vodafone are offically laying the blame with them now both in correspondence and in their county court defence. It is certainly the first time Vodafone has said it is Phones4u's fault. The 12th September is when my allocation questionnaire is due back in and I certainly won't be waiting too long to pop that in.

[philharg]

Phones4u have been very effective in getting back to me straight away today by telephone.

 

They have confirmed that the contract was never in place because the number was never ported through... I have been told Vodafone must have been aware of this because they were told by Phones4u that the porting had failed to go through, however it appears Vodafone opened up a line anyway (with no mobile phone number) and continued charging.

 

Phones4u's opinion is that Vodafone's offer of £426.08 for my expenses to date is their admittance of liability and that this is a rather late stage to suddenly write Phones4u into the defence.

[locutus]

12th has passed... how's things going?

[philharg]

Well the allocation questionnaire was handed in before the date of the 12th so that's all gone through to the courts... just have to wait for things to progress from their side obviously now.

 

Phones4u sent me a letter post phone call confirming many of the details, I am awaiting another letter from them in response to one I sent post the phonecall. Hopefully I receive this within the next week.

 

Experian have still failed to reply to the letter I sent them. However they did state in an email to me regarding an SAR which I hadn't felt they had disclosed fully:

 

So according to Experian they have never even communicated with each other about my credit file as to ascertain the problems with my account... how then would Vodafone decide that it was Experian's fault for the two subsequent defaults if they never even communicated with each other.

 

"2. We have not had any correspondence with Vodafone Ltd. They provide information to us electronically on a monthly basis. They also have the facility to update individual records on our system themselves.

6. We have no internal mail regarding your account or the placement of the default by Vodafone ltd"

So according to Experian they have never even communicated with each other about my credit file as to ascertain the problems with my account... how then would Vodafone decide that it was Experian's fault for the two subsequent defaults if they never even communicated with each other.

 

That's all for now, still waiting for some responses to come back from all three companies embroiled in this.

[2Grumpy]

It might be worthwhile asking Experian if they have carried out any activities that might have caused the default to re-appear e.g. database recovery, re-running files supplied by vodaphone at a later date, backing out updates

 

Experian's comment about not receiving anything in the internal post sounds a bit too specific. Where I work, internal post is from a different department of my company. You would expect something to Experian from Vodaphone to be in their external post ...

 

"They also have the facility to update individual records on our system themselves." contradicts what vodaphone have told you. It also means that they could have added / removed the default immediately

[MARTIN3030]

"You would expect something to Experian from Vodaphone to be in their external post"

 

I would imagine internal post for an organisation such as Experian means electronically generated as opposed to actual paper comms.