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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland to proof on bank charges


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Not really, just being a bit light hearted. No offense intended.

 

Back to topic, when you read (and read it well)

 

The Consumer Forums - FAQ - The New Bank Charges Position

 

please be aware we will require written evedence of banks telling us the charges were proportionate to their costs. The whole argument rests on providing this evidence. Personally I dont think we will have any trouble finding enough for each bank.

 

Effectively they have cut their own throats IMHO.

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We secured a bit more than permission to amend Michael; it might be helpful to give a more detailed explanation.

 

Yesterday's hearing took place with the fully amended Statement of Claim (amended POC) and amended crave before the court, and previously intimated to the bank's solicitors. Which may explain why counsel for the bank objected so strongly to the orders we sought, and hoped to get the case dismissed.

 

The court was taken through the new ss.140A-B CCA case, and the substantially revised reg.5 case, and full legal argument took place in light of same. The bank was ordained to lodge defences in light of the new and revised grounds of claim, and a full evidential hearing was fixed.

 

The reason we have said 'Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland to proof on bank charges' is twofold.

 

(1) Now that the court has accepted the new legal grounds, and appointed an evidential hearing on those grounds, the effect of this evidentially and tactically is very significant. Section 140B(9) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 provides as follows:

 

(9) If, in any such proceedings, the debtor or a surety alleges that the relationship between the creditor and the debtor is unfair to the debtor, it is for the creditor to prove to the contrary.

 

What this means is that the Bank of Scotland now has to prove its charges are fair in relation to price (under s.140A of the CCA). If you go back to pre-July 2007, that never happened. It always for claimants to prove charges were unfair, which historically was never easy given the banks failure to disclose their true business model etc.,

 

Tactically, to place the bank under more pressure, we can enroll an application to ordain the bank 'to lead' at the evidential hearing i.e. we create a prima facie presumption that the charges are unlawful, which the bank can rebut, but the onus is on them, evidentially, to do so, and we can insist that they lead their witnesses and evidence first. We are entitled to do this, given the court has accepted the new grounds of claim.

 

Now, you wouldn't expect us to go into any more details - as our duty is to our client - but we believe we can show on the balance of probabilities that the charges were excessive, and if so, unfair under the CCA. We also have a pending claim to effectively ban the imposition of future charges - so this is considerably more powerful than a simple payment action (which is all we had pre-July 2007).

 

(2) The second reason for our description of this development, is that we believe it is important to counter the fact the banks have convinced most people it's now impossible to challenge their charges as unfair and unlawful. But more on that if we can secure a number of victories - which I believe we have reasonably good prospects to do so.

 

Mike

 

If as in the case in Scotland the banks are to prove that their charges are not unfair in relation to price (S140A of the CCA) could we refer in court to the findings of Professors Molyneux and Struthers and Ian Jarrett?

I know this was a hot topic quite a while ago but if price is back on the legal agenda then there is strong evidence from the Professors to rebut any assertions from the banks that their charges are fair (in relation to price).

If this type of evidence is before the court then it blows the free if in credit argument put by the banks clear out of the water.

 

Q – Have I spectacularly missed the point?

 

 

 

I’ll get me coat.

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A significant imbalance between the contracting parties?

 

I would argue that as soon as Scotland 'put the banks to proof' there is now a significant imbalance BETWEEN England and Scotland (both being Member States) in affording the same level of protection to the consumers on both sides of the Border.

 

m2ae

 

m2ae

 

I don't want to be pedantic or weaken your argument in any way - but Scotland and England are actually part of the same member state (UK).

 

As a Scot I know this becasue we are awfully busy at present running both Scottish and UK Parliaments! ;)

 

Good luck!

 

BD

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m2ae

 

I don't want to be pedantic or weaken your argument in any way - but Scotland and England are actually part of the same member state (UK).

 

As a Scot I know this becasue we are awfully busy at present running both Scottish and UK Parliaments! ;)

 

Good luck!

 

BD

 

 

Thanks BD

 

In that case the argument is ever MORE strenghtened not weakend because this imbalance is happening WITHIN THE SAME UK Member State. There is even less room for excuses.

 

It does not make sense to apply that particular provision in a different manner in one part of the UK Member State differently to a region in a different part of that same UK Member State.

 

This suggests that 'fiscal borders' could be set up within Member States as well as between Member States within the European ''Union''

 

rgds

 

m2ae:-o

Edited by means2anend
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BD..

Not meaning to be disrespectful in anyway ...but if the interpretation and application of ECJ decisions vary somewhat BETWEEN MEMBER STATEs then that may be down to a substantail difference in the Language-Sense and meanings used.

 

BUT when the dominant language WITHIN the UK MEMBER STATE is English there really should be very little room for excuses in the mis-understanding of what has been interpreted and applied in Scotland by the Scottish Judges..... by English Court's to be applied in England and Wales.

 

m2ae

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m2ae

 

I totally accept the logic of your point - but then again I always saw the logic in £39 bank charges being unfair - so sadly logic, law and justice don't necessarily go together (unlike freedom and whisky - which always "gang thegither").

 

BD

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Hi,

 

Sorry to ask again but does anyone know of any official referencing system I can use to reference the recent Scottish case of Sharp v Bank of Scotland plc. The reason being is that I am inserting the case into a letter to bring to the judges attention in an attempt to stop HSBC being successful in their strikeout application. It's great that I have the name and year of the case but the judge will want a full reference, or even a copy of the judgement/Order, so that it can be verified. I have one hour left before we have to send the letter off.

 

Urgent help appreciated,

 

TheyrCriminals

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Hi,

 

Sorry to ask again but does anyone know of any official referencing system I can use to reference the recent Scottish case of Sharp v Bank of Scotland plc. The reason being is that I am inserting the case into a letter to bring to the judges attention in an attempt to stop HSBC being successful in their strikeout application. It's great that I have the name and year of the case but the judge will want a full reference, or even a copy of the judgement/Order, so that it can be verified. I have one hour left before we have to send the letter off.

 

Urgent help appreciated,

 

TheyrCriminals

 

Found this but no reference;

 

In Sharp v. Bank of Scotland plc, Sheriff Baird, a senior sheriff at Glasgow Sheriff Court, rejected the submissions for the defenders, and granted the pursuer's application to substantially amend her Statement of Claim and Crave, recalled the sist, and fixed a full evidential hearing (know as a 'proof' in Scotland) for 11th June 2010.

 

Got it from here;

 

Govan Law Centre: Sharp v Bank of Scotland plc

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Also, is it Bank of Scotland or RBS? Dont all us taxpayers own some of this?

 

It's Bank of Scotland (not the Royal one) but taxpayers do own a share in it through the Lloyds Banking Group (after the merger of Lloyds TSB and Halifax Bank of Scotland).

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It's Bank of Scotland (not the Royal one) but taxpayers do own a share in it through the Lloyds Banking Group (after the merger of Lloyds TSB and Halifax Bank of Scotland).

 

Thanks tifo, was just thinking out loud. Trying to figure out if English based banks would try and wriggle out of it, but on face value it would appear they cant.

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Q. If the fairness of the charges is irrelevant, then that could mean that we can claim back charges even if they are fair

A. Absolutely right. Any unfair treatment of you as a customer by the bank can invalidate any contractual term which they are trying to enforce by unfair means.

Q. So what kind of unfair treatment of me might invalidate the banks’ charges?

A. Well the kind of treatment which springs immediately to mind is if the bank has misrepresented their charges to you. In other words they have claimed that they were something which they were not and this had the effect of making you accept them with very little fuss.

 

Extract above taken from The Consumer Forums - FAQ - The New Bank Charges Position

 

Would this then mean that any borrowing and payments made on Managed loans as a result of the bank charges, and subsequent life cover, for the loans would all be recoverable using the same argument?

Edited by hsbcfiddled
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Thanks tifo, was just thinking out loud. Trying to figure out if English based banks would try and wriggle out of it, but on face value it would appear they cant.

 

All of these banks are in the same UK Member state...the 'put to proof' scenarion has been applied in one area within the Member State...In my opinion only it can on ly be a matter of time before that reversal of burden actually spreads throughout England and Wales...the question is WHEN?

 

It needs to be now:!:

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I have started a complaint and refund request using these specific arguments against a well known name (saying no more for now). I was quite surprised when it was taken immediately high up the line of command.

 

Excellent work GLC!

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Sheriff puts Bank of Scotland to proof on bank charges

 

 

Friday, 19 February 2010

 

 

Not quite as earth-shattering as the headline suggests - only been granted permission to amend their POC's as opposed to the bank being ordered to show their charges were fair, but one more step in the right direction

 

 

This new development is, of course, hugely welcome aand hopefully will be hugely significant. Well done to your senior solicitor working for Govan. Speaking personally, I got a letter from the Abbey (now Santander, I suppose) saying basically that I have no further claim following the Supreme Court's decision. Letter was dated December 2009 saying if they don't hear from me within 8 weeks they'll consider the case closed, so if I send them a letter now saying I want the case still open it'll hopefully be not too late! Thanks again Michael for letting us know!

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Yes an excellent result for GLC.

I think claims this side of the border will still be difficult. Banking Institutions need to refill their coffers. They will pull as much money in as they can whether by fair means or foul.

Banks will use this money as means to racking up profits affecting share prices and also through the use of equity, invest hugely in (and make considerable profits) in investment banking.

 

The government who have bailed the banks out via the tax payer are keen to have the monies paid back. If all was fair billions of pounds would be paid back to the consumer. The government therefore doesn't give a t..s about the poor consumer. It is the government and its associated bodies that set the law of the land. Now realistically can you see a government that has a country deep in debt and penniless passing legislation that will allow billions of pounds being paid out. They cant afford to bail banks out anymore.

 

Now dear old Barclays were not bailed out but raised their own money for the prime reason that they do not want to be controlled by anyone other themselves. Look at their profits last year (in excess of 10 billion). They inturn pay out millions in bonuses to supposedly top end staff. The government is corrupt and so are the banks they privatised.

 

I do however feel sure that they must at some time fall foul of unfair trading terms and conditions. How on earth can it be fair that those who have accrued financially extortionate penalty charges are being used to subsidise those who benefit from free banking. Penalty charges have been £35 plus on some accounts. They have now reduced them to less than the £12 and mostly £8.

Does that mean that they are now loosing £20 plus on a charge?I think not. They are still making a huge profit on an £8 charge reflected in the fact that they can and will debit your account with these charges whenever they can. If they cannot put the charges on fairly then they will make up ways they can apply these charges to your account. It takes time and money to get these charges back. I have a running battle with Barclays they are a nightmare. They are also confounded liars. Dont get mad just get even. I await further news in these forums so as I can work out the way to progress forward. These claims I believe will have to be made on an individual basis and we must never ever lose hope. They are after all goverment legalised loan shark banks.

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