Steve v Capital

[MandM]

I've got a security sig thing somewhere. will try and find it unless someone finds it first

 

M

[steve2577]

Just been mulling this over and it's a non issue as I am going to lodge a defence so if I give them my signature they take me to court and have to produce an agreement to enforce.

 

I don't give them my signature they take me to court and have to produce an agreement to enforce .

 

So by not giving in I feel better about the situation and it gives me another point in highlighting the difficulty we subjects have in dealing with these companies. I probally gain a month if I provide the signature but I feel bad about the whole issue.

 

I know you guys are all pretty savy with IT but I have been in the IT sector since leaving the RAF in 1983 and trust me if you send me your signature and put 10 lines through it I could remove those lines and send you back a nice clean clear signature on a contract and it would take minutes (as long as I had the right software which I dont because it is expensive I could probably make a reasonable readable copy with paint or notepad which is free with Windows not good enough for forensics but if a judge inspected he wouldn't know the difference).

 

Now I am well aware that none of these companies would even consider doing anything illegal and I know they respect and adhere to the laws of the land but no point in handing over what could eventually turn out to be the ace in the pack eh.

 

What you have to remember is that since the pin and chip came in who signs for anything and we know they dont keep any paperwork like receipts as after 90 days if there was no objection from anybody these were probably trashed trashed.

 

I know you might all think I am being a prat here but I really do think that providing your signature in a nice dark colour on a white piece of paper could be something to be regretted after the event.

 

 

 

Steve:wink:

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[MandM]

PM'd

 

M

[Dotty50]

Hi Steve,

 

Cap1 requested a signature for my SAR and I just sent a signature back but slightly different.

 

The paperwork came back with my signature which was completely different anyway, so they don't read or look at anything. It is just a stalling tactic.

 

Sign Mr M Mouse!

 

They will probably reply with all the paperwork you want, well some of it anyway!

[nick20045]

Put these in a letter and tell them that they are in contempt of the OFT Guidelines. Start the letter with something like: You are a licenced creditor as licenced by the OFT and when applying for your licence you undertook to abide by the OFT Guidelines. Hereafter please find some information. Please note I will not tolerate you refusing to send me the information any further. (Make sure the letter is a stern one and a no nonsence one).

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them. The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which

appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer

legislation

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

What is the purpose of the guidance?

1.5 This guidance is intended to set out the type of behaviour the OFT considers to fall

within the category of unfair business practices which will call into question fitness

to retain or be given a licence. It is expected that applicants and licence holders

will abide by the spirit as well as the letter of this guidance.

 

Who does this guidance apply to?

1.7 This guidance applies to all consumer credit licence holders and applicants.

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

j. requiring an individual to supply information to prove they are not the

debtor in question, for example, driving licences, passports, full name,

date of birth, signatures

[nick20045]

There is your answer. It is in writing and it is not you who is making it up. Read the part about deceitful (marked in bold). They are in breach of the guidelines.

 

Learn to use the Law in your favour. (j) says that "they are not the debtor" but the same applies if you ARE the debtor.

 

And as to the default letter it is interesting. If they intend to default you on that basis (as said in their letter) I would wait for that letter with great joy.

 

Edit: If they are in default of the s.78 application then you should add to your letter (giving them the above information) something like:

 

I note you have sent me a Default Notice. May I please draw to your attention that on the xx/xx/2009 I made a lawful application under the Consumer Credit Agreement 1974. To this you have not sent me the information as per the Consumer Act s.78.

 

I draw to your attention that your 12 working days ran out on the xx/xx/2009. It is your bank that has been sending letters contrary to the OFT Guidelines as shown above. As the 12+2 days ran out on xx/xx/2009, from that date your bank went into default.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

 

Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

(3) The Court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreement) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

78.—(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within

the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor

and payment of a fee of 15 new pence, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a

statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information

to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw

further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the

debtor to the creditor.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Hence, due to the manner you are operating, you placed your bank into default. May I once again draw to your attention that you are supposed to comply with the OFT Guidelines which you agreed to when applying for your licence.

 

Last but not least, considering you are operating in such a manner especially considering that you are also in breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations Act 2008 sections 3, 5, 6 and 7 you have now created an Unfair Relationship between creditor and debtor.

Edited January 24, 2010 by nick20045
Added some more information.

[nick20045]

Question: Did you already send this? http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/572-debt-letter-when-company-refuse-cca-due-to-no-signature-

Edited January 24, 2010 by nick20045

[Old Cogger]

Try this: -

[nick20045]

Edited post 56. Check pm. Not going to post on here what I think will happen just in case the bank may be reading the thread.

[steve2577]

ok done the letter

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I have been requesting a copy of my original agreement from Capital One and on each occasion you have neglected to provide me with what I have lawfully asked for.

Your reply to my formal request dated 30th Nov 2009 was to ask for a copy of my signature and some form of ID to prove my identity. I responded on the 15th Dec and made it clear to you that my signature was not required for me to obtain a copy of my agreement and also notified you that I expected the matter to be resolved within 7 days. Your reply dated 4th Jan 2010 again gave me your reasons for my signature and you also stated that my refusal to supply you with this request would add to the delay in providing these documents.

 

Capital One are a licenced creditor as licenced by the OFT and when applying for your licence you undertook to abide by the OFT Guidelines. Hereafter please find some information. Please note I will not tolerate you refusing to send me the information I have lawfully requested any further.

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them. The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which

appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:

 

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

What is the purpose of the guidance?

 

1.5 This guidance is intended to set out the type of behaviour the OFT considers to fall

within the category of unfair business practices which will call into question fitness

to retain or be given a licence. It is expected that applicants and licence holders

will abide by the spirit as well as the letter of this guidance.

 

Who does this guidance apply to?

 

1.7 This guidance applies to all consumer credit licence holders and applicants.

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

 

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

j. requiring an individual to supply information to prove they are not the

debtor in question, for example, driving licences, passports, full name,

date of birth, signatures

 

Due to the manner you are operating, considering you are refusing to abide by a lawful application and you are operating in breach of the OFT Guidelines which in the first place gave you your licence to operate after you agreed to abide by their regulations, I now feel that indeed the agreement (if there is indeed any) is now unenforceable due to Unfair Relationship between bank and client.

 

I note you have sent me a Default Notice. May I please draw to your attention that on the 30th Nov 2009 I made a lawful application under the Consumer Credit Agreement 1974. To this you have not sent me the information as per the Consumer Act s.78.

 

I draw to your attention that your 12 working days ran out on 17th Dec. It is your bank that has been sending letters contrary to the OFT Guidelines as shown above. As the 12+2 days ran out on 19th Dec 2009, from that date your bank went into default.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

 

Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

(3) The Court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreement) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

78.—(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within

the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor

and payment of a fee of 15 new pence, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a

statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information

to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw

further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the

debtor to the creditor.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

Edited January 24, 2010 by steve2577

[nick20045]

ok done the letter how about this the only thing I was going to do was remind them that there are certain rules and regulations preventing them from taking certain action ie Default Notices etc but thought why should I.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Since Oct 2009 I have been requesting a copy of my original agreement and on each occasion you have neglected to provide me with what I have lawfully asked for. You have asked for a copy of my signature and some form of ID and given me your reason for wanting this and on my last request dated 15th Dec I made it clear to you that my signature was not required for me to obtain a copy of my agreement and also notified you that I expected the matter to be resolved within 7 days. Send me a fiver and I will send you some "." and some "," in the post. You can run out of breath reading that long sentence!!!!!!!! Also you say Oct 2009 and the later on say November 2009. Which is correct? Have edited it for you.......

 

Since xx/xx/2009 I have been requesting a true copy of my executed agreement and on each occasion you have neglected to provide me with what I have lawfully asked for. Although you have asked for a copy of my signature and some form of ID in my last request dated 15th Dec I made it clear to you that my signature was not required for me to obtain a copy of my agreement. In that letter I also notified you that I expected the matter to be resolved within 7 days. To date you have still failed to do so.

 

Capital One are a licenced creditor as licenced by the OFT and when applying for your licence you undertook to abide by the OFT Guidelines. Hereafter please find some information. Please note I will not tolerate you refusing to send me the information I have lawfully requested any further.

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them. The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which

appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:

 

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

What is the purpose of the guidance?

 

1.5 This guidance is intended to set out the type of behaviour the OFT considers to fall

within the category of unfair business practices which will call into question fitness

to retain or be given a licence. It is expected that applicants and licence holders

will abide by the spirit as well as the letter of this guidance.

 

Who does this guidance apply to?

 

1.7 This guidance applies to all consumer credit licence holders and applicants.

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

 

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

j. requiring an individual to supply information to prove they are not the

debtor in question, for example, driving licences, passports, full name,

date of birth, signatures

 

I note you have sent me a Default Notice. May I please draw to your attention that on the 30th Nov 2009 I made a lawful application under the Consumer Credit Agreement 1974. To this you have not sent me the information as per the Consumer Act s.78.

 

I draw to your attention that your 12 working days ran out on 17th Dec. It is your bank that has been sending letters contrary to the OFT Guidelines as shown above. As the 12+2 days ran out on 19th Dec 2009, from that date your bank went into default.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

 

Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

(3) The Court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreement) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

78.—(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within

the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor

and payment of a fee of 15 new pence, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a

statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information

to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw

further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the

debtor to the creditor.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Hence, due to the manner you are operating, you placed your bank into default. May I once again draw to your attention that you are supposed to comply with the OFT Guidelines which you agreed to when applying for your licence.

 

Last but not least, considering you are operating in such a manner especially considering that you are also in breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations Act 2008 sections 3, 5, 6 and 7 you have now created an Unfair Relationship between creditor and debtor.

 

Have fun. Now let them play their cards.

[steve2577]

Found some "." and some","

 

Yes I messed up by not putting Capital One in the Payee section of the Postal order the first time in Oct which they kindly sent back to me so rectified this and as far I am am concerned my first correct lawfull request was 30th Nov.

 

I have amended the letter.

[steve2577]

Having trouble inserting into this page so done it further down

Edited January 25, 2010 by steve2577

[nick20045]

As I always say any letter I draft is a "draft" and the OP can edit/omit/change etc as deemed fit.

 

I notice you have skipped a lot of the information. I guess up to you.

 

BUT one of the things you removed was informing them that the account is in default. By my reasoning, doing that, you have changed the table into their favour. Also by removing the Unfair Protection Act you have defeated the argument of Unfair Relationship.

[steve2577]

Nick There is a huge problem when you copy and paste in the thread so I am trying it again here.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Since Oct 2009 I have been requesting a copy of my original agreement and on each occasion you have neglected to provide me with what I have lawfully asked for. You have asked for a copy of my signature and some form of ID and given me your reason for wanting this and on my last request dated 15th Dec 2009 I made it clear to you that my signature was not required for me to obtain a copy of my agreement and also notified you that I expected the matter to be resolved within 7 days.

 

Capital One are a licenced creditor as licenced by the OFT and when applying for your licence you undertook to abide by the OFT Guidelines. Hereafter please find some information. Please note I will not tolerate you refusing to send me the information I have lawfully requested any further.

 

1.1 The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has a duty under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to ensure that licences are only given to and retained by those who are fit to hold them. The Act provides that the OFT take into account any circumstances which

appear to be relevant and in particular any evidence that an applicant, licensee, or their employees, agents or business associates, past or present, have:

 

• failed to comply with the requirements of credit or other consumer legislation

• engaged in business practices appearing to us to be deceitful, oppressive or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

What is the purpose of the guidance?

 

1.5 This guidance is intended to set out the type of behaviour the OFT considers to fall

within the category of unfair business practices which will call into question fitness

to retain or be given a licence. It is expected that applicants and licence holders

will abide by the spirit as well as the letter of this guidance.

 

Who does this guidance apply to?

 

1.7 This guidance applies to all consumer credit licence holders and applicants.

 

Deceptive and/or unfair methods

 

2.7 Dealings with debtors are not to be deceitful and/or unfair.

2.8 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

j. requiring an individual to supply information to prove they are not the

debtor in question, for example, driving licences, passports, full name,

date of birth, signatures

 

 

I note you have sent me a Default Notice. May I please draw to your attention that on the 30th Nov 2009 I made a lawful application under the Consumer Credit Agreement 1974. To this you have not sent me the information as per the Consumer Act s.78.

 

I draw to your attention that your 12 working days ran out on 17th Dec. It is your bank that has been sending letters contrary to the OFT Guidelines as shown above. As the 12+2 days ran out on 19th Dec 2009, from that date your bank went into default.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

 

Section 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 states:

(3) The Court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreement) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

78.—(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within

the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor

and payment of a fee of 15 new pence, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a

statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information

to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw

further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the

debtor to the creditor.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

and

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Hence, due to the manner you are operating, you placed your bank into default. May I once again draw to your attention that you are supposed to comply with the OFT Guidelines which you agreed to when applying for your licence.

 

Last but not least, considering you are operating in such a manner especially considering that you are also in breach of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations Act 2008 sections 3, 5, 6 and 7 you have now created an Unfair Relationship between creditor and debtor.

[nick20045]

Three minutes and check pm for last "trick" which is best to keep a bit private.