Volkswagen Fox 1.2 - 56 Reg - Faulty Kumho Tyres? Recourse under SOGA?

[chaoticj]

Hi,

 

I purchased a Volkswagen Fox 1.2 Basic from my local Volkswagen dealership in November 2007, it was an ex-test drive vehicle and was approx. 1 year old having been first registered in November 2006 (56 Reg plate).

 

The mileage when I purchased it was 3690 and it was serviced at the dealership prior to collection. After the first year of owning it upon having its second service at the dealership the mileage was 4372.

 

I have just had it serviced and MOT'ed at a mileage of 6857 at a local reputable garage (less than half the total cost of local dealership and better customer service) as it is almost three years old - unfortunately it has failed the MOT the reasons being;

 

001 Nearside front (outer side wall) tyre has ply or cords exposed [4.1.C.1b]

002 Offside front (outer side wall) tyre has ply or cords exposed [4.1.C.1b]

003 Nearside rear (outer side wall) tyre has a cut in excess of the requirements deep enough to reach the ply or cords [4.1.C.1a]

004 Offside rear (outer side wall) tyre has a cut in excess of the requirements deep enough to reach the ply or cords [4.1.C.1a]

 

It was explained to me that this is very dangerous and all four tyres need replacing before the vehicle can pass its MOT. As basically these cuts will only get worse leading to the tyre(s) potentially bursting.

 

The vehicle is still under the manufacturer warranty but it does not cover tyres. The mechanic said that I have looked after the car extremely well and that there is no damage to the wheels, he feels that the problems may have been caused by sun/weather - but he has not seen this problem before and it is very unusual on a car with such a low mileage.

 

I feel that the tyres (Kumho 165/70R14 81 T) which are South Korean made are faulty. I was advised by the mechanic to take the vehicle to ATC and have all four tyres replaced, and ask them to send the old tyres to the manufacturer for testing, apparently if they are found to be faulty the manufacturer may give me an allowance depending on my mileage and amount of tread left (approx 90% tread left - almost like new) against the cost of the new tyres.

 

I am being charged £270 by ATC for four new Michelin tyres, they are giving me a form to fill out and I can claim £40 of Sainsburys vouchers from Michelin making the end cost approx. £230. The car is currently in ATC with the tyres due to be fit tomorrow morning.

 

I did telephone the Volkswagen dealership and discussed the problem at great length, their final offer was that they would fit Michelin tyres for £135, I said that they should replace the tyres for free under the Sale of Goods Act because the tyres appeared to be faulty and for the following reasons;

 

Low mileage of car

Kept car in shadow of house on driveway

Used car every week and most days each week

 

I said that if they couldn't do that I would go to the Small Claims Court, they said they couldn't do anything further.

 

So I was thinking after I get the tyres replaced at ATC tomorrow I'd ask for a letter from them describing the condition of the tyres etc basically an experts letter, also get a letter from the garage when I take it for the MOT re-test.

 

Your advice would be most appreciated, I feel that I'm in the right but I'm not sure whether I was correct to decline the Volkswagen dealerships offer on the telephone (replace tyres for £135), and whether the fact I've had the latest service and MOT done at an independant garage matters.

 

The local dealership were a bit funny about me having gone elsewhere on the phone, but it is October 2009 and my next service was not actually due until November 2009..

 

Really need some advice about this from someone in the know.. thank you!

[heliosuk]

It sounds to me as though you're tyres have been vandalised. I take it that the cuts are only in one place. No VW dealer on earth, even the bad ones, would dare to have done this. The chances of sun/weather causing this are so remote you'd probably stand a better chance of winning the lottery twice in a row. VW, in fact all manufactruers sit production cars in remote desert place such as the Kalihari and Arizona doing nothing and all aspects of the car are monitored.

It is also unlikely, though not impossible that they would have done over 3000 miles in that condition had it been sold to you like that. Perhaps a case for Mr Plod?

[Conniff]

Irrespective of what is wrong with the tyres and how the problem came about, bring them home with you, you might need them.

[chaoticj]

It sounds to me as though you're tyres have been vandalised. I take it that the cuts are only in one place. No VW dealer on earth, even the bad ones, would dare to have done this. The chances of sun/weather causing this are so remote you'd probably stand a better chance of winning the lottery twice in a row. VW, in fact all manufactruers sit production cars in remote desert place such as the Kalihari and Arizona doing nothing and all aspects of the car are monitored.

It is also unlikely, though not impossible that they would have done over 3000 miles in that condition had it been sold to you like that. Perhaps a case for Mr Plod?

 

No it doesn't appear that they are vandalised, it isn't just cuts in one place. I have a push bike in the garage that has been stood for a few years unused and the tyres have perished - the tyres on my car are like that on each tyre however it hasn't been stood for long periods of time without being used.. etc

 

If you're suggesting that the local garage could have done this I don't think that for a minute - you couldn't make those kinds of marks and if that was the case they'd have attempted to sell me tyres which they didn't do but sent me to ATS who didn't actually know them.

 

Irrespective of what is wrong with the tyres and how the problem came about, bring them home with you, you might need them.

 

I suppose this is the "evidence" but if I have a few pictures of the tyres, and a letter from ATS and the local garage wouldn't that suffice as proof? If I do take the tyres then they won't be tested by the manufacturer and I suppose I won't get any recompense from them..

 

Not really sure what the best way to proceed is. I'm not very knowledgeable about cars but I feel that the tyres are most certainly faulty and I'm willing to fight for my rights as a consumer.

 

A friend has suggested that I call the head office of the dealership and ask to speak to the operations manager, laying it on thick and explaining the problem, asking them to resolve it within 24 hours before I go to Volkswagen (whose brand they are representing in a very poor manner..)

[Conniff]

Sorry, if ATS are going to send them away for you, then yes leave them there, but as you say, get lots of pictures.

 

This isn't going to be as easy as demanding a resolution in 24 hours, the tyres are at least 3 years old so only an expert examination will be able to determine if they have a fault or just natural deterioration. There will be a date and place of manufacture code on them and it could turn out that they are older than you think which would work in your favour.

[scaniaman]

Two thoughts. Firstly, has no one suggested that you have kerbed the tyres as all defects are on side walls? Secondly, you bought car with very low milage--Do VW fit Kumho tyres ex factory--i have never heard of this before.

Any claims on tyres are age restricted and i would have thought that ATS would have looked at the age first considering the very low milage.

[heliosuk]

No it doesn't appear that they are vandalised, it isn't just cuts in one place. I have a push bike in the garage that has been stood for a few years unused and the tyres have perished - the tyres on my car are like that on each tyre however it hasn't been stood for long periods of time without being used.. etc

 

If you're suggesting that the local garage could have done this I don't think that for a minute - you couldn't make those kinds of marks and if that was the case they'd have attempted to sell me tyres which they didn't do but sent me to ATS who didn't actually know them.

 

 

 

I suppose this is the "evidence" but if I have a few pictures of the tyres, and a letter from ATS and the local garage wouldn't that suffice as proof? If I do take the tyres then they won't be tested by the manufacturer and I suppose I won't get any recompense from them..

 

quote]

 

I'm not suggesting and it isn't implied in the post at all that the garage have done this. Forget VW. The warranty policy is very clear on this and is usually in the hand book. It usually reads that in the case of tyre complaint/warranty this should be addressed by the tyre manufacturer through the appointed tyre dealer. In my extensive experience the tyre manufactuers have been very good and reasonable. Please post the pics so we can see exactly what the problem is.

[scaniaman]

"Extensive experience with tyre manufacturers" Now what makes would they be?----certainly not a French company. Like Citroen there is no customer back up.

[chaoticj]

Sorry, if ATS are going to send them away for you, then yes leave them there, but as you say, get lots of pictures.

 

This isn't going to be as easy as demanding a resolution in 24 hours, the tyres are at least 3 years old so only an expert examination will be able to determine if they have a fault or just natural deterioration. There will be a date and place of manufacture code on them and it could turn out that they are older than you think which would work in your favour.

 

Okay I will do this.. perhaps I should await the manufacturers verdict before proceeding with contacting the dealerships head office? In actual fact ATS mentioned something about the tyres being from 2004? I wasn't sure if that was a fact or conjecture though! If that is the case then that means the tyres were made 2 years before the car was - and they weren't the original ones?

 

Two thoughts. Firstly, has no one suggested that you have kerbed the tyres as all defects are on side walls? Secondly, you bought car with very low milage--Do VW fit Kumho tyres ex factory--i have never heard of this before.

Any claims on tyres are age restricted and i would have thought that ATS would have looked at the age first considering the very low milage.

 

Nope having kerbed the tyres has not been suggested at any stage, the mechanic at the garage commented on how well looked after the car was. Yes the Kumho tyres I am pretty sure are ex factory I found some blurb on their website Kumho Tyres - European Site and the tyre checker on their site also has Volkswagen Fox listed in it.

 

I'm not suggesting and it isn't implied in the post at all that the garage have done this. Forget VW. The warranty policy is very clear on this and is usually in the hand book. It usually reads that in the case of tyre complaint/warranty this should be addressed by the tyre manufacturer through the appointed tyre dealer. In my extensive experience the tyre manufactuers have been very good and reasonable. Please post the pics so we can see exactly what the problem is.

 

Okay, no worries. Well I will get some pictures tomorrow and post them up. A better description of what can be seen is "cracking" to the tyre walls.

 

Thank you so much for all of the replies. I'll be sure to get myself much more acquainted with cars and their maintenance as a result of this.

 

I just feel completely sick knowing I've been driving around with my girlfriend in a car with illegal and unsafe tyres

[heliosuk]

ATS will have to send them off and the report is usually back within a month. The pics idea is very good indeed. Interestingly I have the same make of tyres on my car at the moment. Had it been 7 months ago I could have told you wear pattern on the side wall after 2 weeks due to the mileage I did. Before the tyres went on I examined them as due to the mileage I did/can do, noise is my most concern. I could not see any reason why they should not perform as well as the OEM fitted.

 

With tyres, OEM's fit the best deal at the time which have been proven to meet/surpass the specification and they will buy 250, 000 at a time. So generally the supply can change 4 times a year depending on the volume of cars produced through an individual factory. Because of the nature of the use the tyres potentially get, the tyre manufacturers have to agree to taking on the warranty liabilities direct in the purchasing agreement.

 

If you are interested, Google Firestone and Ford explorer. Interesting one this!!

[heliosuk]

"Extensive experience with tyre manufacturers" Now what makes would they be?----certainly not a French company. Like Citroen there is no customer back up.

 

Now, now, Scania!!

Pirrelli, Michelin and Goodyear have all been good. In fact from private experience, they were really good.Another one, a lesser make but on the same level I would say as the ones in question had quality control issues which they could not rectify in time so are consequently not fitted as OEM equipment.

[chaoticj]

On an unrelated note I was looking at some of Conniff's posts and I found this interesting thread; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/garage-services/203457-good-garage-scheme-not.html

 

After seeing an advert on TV for the "Good Garages Scheme" the other week, I looked on the Good Garages Scheme website, that is how I actually found the local independant garage that carried out the full service and MOT..

 

I didn't realise the Good Garages Scheme was effectively a sales scheme for Forte Additives.. thankfully the garage did seem very very good! But I notice on their service schedule it states;

 

001 Drain or extract engine oil and replace oil filter

002 Fill/top up engine oil

 

I assume that the oil is made by.. Forte Additives!

 

I am quite befuddled by both the services carried out by the dealership and the service from the local independant garage.. in terms of what they are supposed to check, whether it needs replacing or not, et cetera. nothing seems particularly consistent.

[Conniff]

These are additives to the oil and not Forte oils. All oils have some additives in them, the better the oil, the better and more effective these additives are.

 

One additive is for fuel and it does breakdown the varnish that can clog things up inside the engine, but fuels have these additives as well. Shells premium is far superior to Supermarket fuels, but they have to be paid for hence Supermarkets can sell their fuel cheaper because they don't have these additives. You are not getting a like for like when going on price at the pumps.

 

If you want a good cleanout of a petrol engine, you can have diesel oil put in in place of what you would normally have, they contain more detergents than normal oil as diesels are dirtier engines.

 

The good garage scheme gets you listed in the Forte guide but just as with any guide, it doesn't necessarily follow that the garage is a good one the same as it don't mean the garage that is not listed is a poor one. In the latter case it probably means they can't afford the quota of additives they have to purchase.

 

Forte don't send in a car with some introduced faults and pretend they are a customer and make their decision based on the quality of work and the service given, they just list you if you buy their products.

 

You really could do with knowing if they drained the oil or extracted it. Extracting means it was sucked out of the dipstick hole and all the muck don't get removed that way. The engine should ideally be hot, the hotter the better, say after a long trip and then most of the muck is in suspension in the oil and will come out when the drain plug is removed.

[chaoticj]

Thanks for the info Conniff, most interesting.

 

I had the tyres replaced this morning at ATS with Michelin Energy Saver (185/60HR14), I was told that both front wheels had the tracking off, one moreso than the other, so the tracking was adjusted. The total cost was £270.

 

I'm not sure tracking adjustment was really required though as after having looked on the Internet it appears that if the tracking is actually off significantly then your steering veers slightly to one side when your supposed to be going straight? I've never experienced that problem.

 

Anyway I took some pictures of the old Kumho tyres with my digital camera, and with a 20p coin to show how much tread was left, the tread was measured by ATS to be 555, 555 on the front tyres and 777, 777 on the rear tyres.

 

Interesting to note, the old tyres appear to be Kumho "Power Max 769" and the spare is actually a Kumho "KH17 Solus" - I'm not sure if this is significant?

 

 

 

Anyway I took the car for the MOT re-test so I now have a valid MOT certificate..

 

I actually telephoned Volkswagen today and complained about the local dealership - the person I spoke to was very sympathetic and he agreed with me completely, he spoke to his team leader to see if there was anything that Volkswagen could do to help.

 

I was basically told that because I had taken the vehicle to an independant garage for the service and MOT, and had the tyres fitted elsewhere too, that Volkswagen wouldn't be able to do anything to help me.

 

I was told that they normally have funds available to help with costs, they agreed that the tyres should have lasted much longer, but said that they needed to inspect them to make sure that they hadn't been abused etc etc.

 

I said that I would have taken the car into the local dealership but last time they had it for a simple repair they kept it for 3 days and didn't give me a courtesy car. I've had a really poor service and they charge the top price, so that is why I went elsewhere.

 

I said that I took the car to ATS because they could fit the new tyres today, and the dealership could only do it Friday. I gave the dealership the opportunity to fit the new Michelin tyres, but their best offer was £135, and I felt that I shouldn't have to pay anything due to the fact I have a low mileage on the car and the tyres haven't been abused.

 

I was told that they would call the local dealership and see what they could do, I mentioned that I had pictures available that I could email so they said that they would try and sort something out, and then they wouldn't need to see the tyres. I said that at no point did the dealership request to see the tyres.

 

Anyway they said that someone from either Volkswagen or the dealership would call me back, and they have not!

[Hammy1962]

Holy Cr@p, £270 for 4 tyres + tracking, unbelievable, what a great offer and......................well I won't go on

 

Just for a bit of perspective, I've just paid a little over that price for 4 tyres, EACH, without VAT.

 

AND..............you got some Sainsbury's vouchers to buy beer.

 

Hammy

[heliosuk]

I don't think that there is anything significant in the spare being different. It might be that at some point in the cars life the wheels have been changed which no one but VW can prove. They will have details of what was fitted when it left the factory.

 

VW will come back with "follow the procedure for tyre warranty" I reckon. I have never seen VW or any other manufacturer pay for tyres apart from the Ford/Firestone story.

 

I'm very surprised at the MOT failure. Excessive cracking would have been more appropriate as I can't see evidence of cords showing. However the test is down to the examiners opinion at the time of testing.

 

There is no evidence from the pics submitted that tracking is necessary. In fact it's possible for the tracking, camber and castor to be out without you noticing a thing. I spent a lot of time studying vehicle pull etc and there are many other factors that can cause it.

 

Personally, I'd send the tyres back via ATS under complaint now you have pics and see what they say and also request a return. Be warned though some of the testing is of the destructive type so will be in shreads or not even returnable. Keep VW informed. Read also polo engine change thread to see how VW handle complaints if done correctly.

 

It's important and to your advantage that you have used ATS as well so that's a plus point in your favour.

 

Hope that helps.

[chaoticj]

Holy Cr@p, £270 for 4 tyres + tracking, unbelievable, what a great offer and......................well I won't go on

 

Just for a bit of perspective, I've just paid a little over that price for 4 tyres, EACH, without VAT.

 

AND..............you got some Sainsbury's vouchers to buy beer.

 

Hammy

 

Not sure what you are saying here, irrespective of the price of the tyres I shouldn't have had to buy new ones when the car is just under 3 years old and has less than 7000 miles on the clock.

 

I don't think that there is anything significant in the spare being different. It might be that at some point in the cars life the wheels have been changed which no one but VW can prove. They will have details of what was fitted when it left the factory.

 

VW will come back with "follow the procedure for tyre warranty" I reckon. I have never seen VW or any other manufacturer pay for tyres apart from the Ford/Firestone story.

 

I'm very surprised at the MOT failure. Excessive cracking would have been more appropriate as I can't see evidence of cords showing. However the test is down to the examiners opinion at the time of testing.

 

There is no evidence from the pics submitted that tracking is necessary. In fact it's possible for the tracking, camber and castor to be out without you noticing a thing. I spent a lot of time studying vehicle pull etc and there are many other factors that can cause it.

 

Personally, I'd send the tyres back via ATS under complaint now you have pics and see what they say and also request a return. Be warned though some of the testing is of the destructive type so will be in shreads or not even returnable. Keep VW informed. Read also polo engine change thread to see how VW handle complaints if done correctly.

 

It's important and to your advantage that you have used ATS as well so that's a plus point in your favour.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for this information..

 

I have been promised a call back 3 times today by the Volkswagen Service Centre, but I haven't received one, they say that they will now contact me at 9am on Monday.

 

I asked what brand and type of tires did they have on record as being fit at the factory but they said that their system is "read-only" and they couldn't tell me - they said that it can also be different tyres depending on the previous owner - I said that the vehicle was bought from the dealership so they were the previous owner.

 

In any case they said that they couldn't tell me and that the dealership would have that information - my response being that the service manager at the dealership last Wednesday couldn't even tell me the size and specification of tyres fitted on a VW Fox, and he actually had to call ATS to find that information out!

 

Upon inspection of the Fox manual it says that if the spare is a different type of tire i.e. Winter tyre it should only be used for a short period of time before being replaced.. not sure whether this means most Fox come with a different type of spare tyre?

 

The upshot is that Volkswagen have taken everything I've told them on board and are taking the way I've been treated by the dealership seriously - they say that changes will be made at this local dealership not necessarily instantly but in the near future, and if these changes aren't made then they won't be selling Volkswagen cars any more!

 

The dealership have said that they will charge 50% of the cost of new tyres provided I haven't had them fitted elsewhere - I already explained to Volkswagen that I'd had the tyres fitted last Thursday because the dealership wouldn't supply and fit them for free, and I needed use of the car and they said that the soonest they could fit them was Friday.

 

So Volkswagen have noted my displeasure and as I say I am due this call back at 9am on Monday. They also say that the dealership have been in touch with ATS who say that the excessive cracking on the side walls of the tyres is due to being stood for a long period of time without being used.

 

I have told Volkswagen that I categorically deny having stood the car for a long period of time - I use it every week and most days per week - the car was an ex-demo 1 year old when I bought it so if the tyres are like that due to the vehicle being stood then it must have been stood before I bought it and ergo the tyres should have been changed for new ones before it was sold to me.

 

The old tyres are being sent to Kumho by ATS on a complaint. So I suppose I'll keep on at Volkswagen/Dealership, whilst awaiting the results of this Kumho complaint.

 

One thing I was wondering if someone could please advise me on.. the VW Fox manual says something about new tyres having to be run in.. can anyone elaborate? I take it this means drive slower than usual and no sharp acceleration or braking?

[Hammy1962]

My point, obviously lost on you, was that your tyres are very cheap, is it really worth all this fuss (Don't answer that, I really don't want to know!)

 

Still you managed to create a few waves at VW didn't you, even got a heads up they might be losing the franchise, nice result. Maybe that Service Manager you are so unhappy with will loose his job as well, that should make you really pleased, is that enough though?

 

Was his livelihood really worth £270.

 

I can just imagine the post in the employment section of CAG.

 

"Fired after complaint - do I have any rights"

 

And then all the pseudo HR experts come along and say how hard done by he is. That should make a very interesting thread.

 

The garage thread is trying to help you get you measly £270 back and the employment thread is helping the guy who got fired because of it.

 

Hammy

[j66]

Tyres deteriorate with age as well as use. Their use is subject to variable conditions, damage from rubbing up against and over kerbs, owners not checking the pressure, UV damage from sun light and extra loading from the car and contents, driving style and from suspension/steering that has been knocked aout of alignment. What next? a complaint to dealer about the wiper blades?

[rickyd]

My point, obviously lost on you, was that your tyres are very cheap, is it really worth all this fuss (Don't answer that, I really don't want to know!)

 

Still you managed to create a few waves at VW didn't you, even got a heads up they might be losing the franchise, nice result. Maybe that Service Manager you are so unhappy with will loose his job as well, that should make you really pleased, is that enough though?

 

Was his livelihood really worth £270.

 

 

Hammy

 

Sarcasm is rightly called the lowest form of wit, a truism you so aptly prove.

 

Its interesting that you think £270 isn't worth pursuing, have you seen the pages of comments surrounding parking charges?

 

You may have a car that has tyres costing more than £270 each, but most of us live in the real world where this kind of thing needs to be questioned and if fault is found, recompense should be made.

 

For what its worth I wouldn't have thought VW (or any other manufacturer) would fit Kumho as original equipment, they're not exactly in the premier league of tyre makers.

Edited October 24, 2009 by rickyd

[miket368]

ATS dont know what they are talking about for starters i work in a tyre dealership and we have the contract for manchester airports tyres and many other huge contracts mainly wagon tyres! For starters 240 for 4 tyres and tracking is expensive infact very expensive we would of done them for 40 each and we do the wheel alignment for free if you buy four plus you get to see my friendly face lol no serious if any of you need tyres in north wales area or mot's or repairs servicing even do tyres for bikes just give me a shout will give you the best deal possible! The tyres do look like a manufacture fault but i havnt as yet heard of a recall on them so seems strange and the tyres being dated 2004 aint really that much of an issue they have a 5 year shelf life before they are to be returned to the manufacture! I had the same with 4 dunlops a while ago off a bmw 225/55r16 and they had roughly 2-3mm remaining and cracked severely we sent them back and the customer got £100 off dunlop suppose its better than nothing anyway good luck with them!

[heliosuk]

Actually, on balance it's not. Vehicle suspension and dynamics have moved on from the days of the Dunlop tracking gauges. ATS when it comes to tyres is generally recognised by UK manufactureres and agents as being reliable and work to quality standards laid down. From memory, VAG gives something like 2 hours to do a full geometry check for starters.

[miket368]

Actually, on balance it's not. Vehicle suspension and dynamics have moved on from the days of the Dunlop tracking gauges. ATS when it comes to tyres is generally recognised by UK manufactureres and agents as being reliable and work to quality standards laid down. From memory, VAG gives something like 2 hours to do a full geometry check for starters.

You sure like to pick at peoples posts dont you? We dont actually use dunlop tracking gauges we use hoffman wall mounted equipmeny which costs £15,000 upwards! As for ATS why have they just lost a lot of accounts and shut over 80 depots? Not saying they are really bad just not as good as people think i know a few lads that work for them and they aint a full shilling but i suppose you get that in any big company!

[heliosuk]

You sure like to pick at peoples posts dont you?

 

Mike, I think you are out of order on this point. The points I raise or suggest are based on 30+ years of experience at the sharp end. I investigate vehicle faults/customer complaints for a living, especially chassis and powertrain related. From a personal point of view I also use independants for tyres etc but get a bit fed up with telling them, especially tyre independants to go back and do the job properly. I'm not deriding independants by any means but would love to know how you use the Hoffmann to check tracking and still make a profit given the prices you suggest you can do it for.

[miket368]

Mike, I think you are out of order on this point. The points I raise or suggest are based on 30+ years of experience at the sharp end. I investigate vehicle faults/customer complaints for a living, especially chassis and powertrain related. From a personal point of view I also use independants for tyres etc but get a bit fed up with telling them, especially tyre independants to go back and do the job properly. I'm not deriding independants by any means but would love to know how you use the Hoffmann to check tracking and still make a profit given the prices you suggest you can do it for.[/quote

It's only free because i said im assistant manager so it down to me or the manager what price we charge usually its 22.90 for 2 wheel or 41.50 for 4 wheel but me and im came to an agreement that if a customer buys 4 tyres we will do a two wheel free of charge should it need a 4 wheel we will carge them for a 2 wheel simple!