Toyota Finance - Car loan question. Very concerned!

[Surfer01]

If you have a loan and the copy that they send you of the loan agreement does not have the heading of the agrement on it, can you request that they send you a copy of the original agreement.

The copy that they sent me after paying the £1 does not show what type of agreement it is. All it shows on the heading is a fax id and number. I am assuming that it is a copy of the agreement that I signed in the dealership that was faxed to the Toyota finance house.

Would it be possible to view the original agreement if you are prepared to travel to their headquarters. I am a little suspicious of the agreement as I thought I was signing a HP agreement when it was a loan agreement and if this was not obvious on the top of the agreement the agreement may be null and void.

Alternatively if it did go to court, can you request that the original agreement is presented in court?

At present I am paying about 3/4's of the instalment every month as I am currently uemployed and cannot afford any more. Obviously concerned about DCAs and court.

[reallymadwoman]

Without a heading of exactly the right wording as specified in the regs, the agreement doesn't comply with the CCA anyway. How old is the loan? Has it got all the prescribed terms etc?

[IdaInFife]

moved to general debt forums

 

ida x

[Surfer01]

Today Toyota Finance contacted me back demanding that I return the car to them as I had not been able to sell it. Although I wrote them a letter in October advising that I would be attempting to sell the car etc and they never responded except by phone to say that I had to sell it by end of October or hand it back to them. We did attempt to sell the car but as the market is depressed we only had one call although the car was competively priced.

Generally the car sells for between £4500 - £5500 privately. Dealer price is close to £6000. Current settlement value is £6600 so we would still owe £2600 if they sold it on auction for £4000. The concern is once they have got the car they could let it go at a lower price as they then hold all the cards. As I had not sold it they wanted it back and stated that they will put it on auction with a reserve of £4000. I wanted this “auction reserve bit” in writing but of course this was not forthcoming.

My normal monthly payment is £192 but as I am unemployed and on benefits and all we can afford to pay is £135. Although sometimes a few days late we have never missed a monthly payment of £135.

They went onto say that if they sold the car they would then re-consider the finance arrangement to drop the instalments to about £80 over the remainder of the term which is about 33 months. Should we give the car back to them and take the loss because it gets them off our back and the payments will reduce over the remaining term of the agreement or should we carry on paying the £135 and retain the car?

We are not trying to get out of the debt, it is just that we cannot afford to pay the full amount. If it went to court on the current dubious loan agreement posted earlier and I was able to demonstrate that I was trying to pay the instalment albeit £57 lower, would a judge look on this favourably? The concern here also is court costs "defending" the action.

Any suggestions on what to do in addition to those already received?

[postggj]

I Remember This

 

This Is A Personal Loan To Buy The Car

 

The Car Belongs To You, Not The Fiace Co

 

So Why Are They Asking For It To Be Returned

 

They Have No Claim On It

[Surfer01]

I requested a true copy of the loan agreement and they sent me a copy of the fax sent to them. Surely that is not right? My concern is associated court costs demonstrating the I & E to the judge and showing that we are trying to pay but £57 less than what they want.

[postggj]

Sorry Confused

 

Have The Finance Co Gone To Court To Ask For A Possesion Order

[Surfer01]

No not yet. Still have to get the solicitor's threatogram but I guess it is on the way. When it arrives I will post it up and in addition will once again request for a true copy of the loan agreement and not a copy of the fax.

[postggj]

When And If The Court Claim Arrives, Use The Request Under Cpr 18 For All The Docs

 

They Cant Enforce This

 

Its A Loan Not Hp Agreement

[Surfer01]

Thanks Postggj. I would imagine i would get the solcitor's letter first demanding immediate payment etc but if from a solicitor doubt if they are stupid enough to demand the car back. However withe support on CAG they may come up a bit short!

PS All the way behind you on your ATOS claim.

[Surfer01]

Okay I have now received the threatogram which states that despite numerous attempts they have not been able to contact me. Luckily I have proof in writing that I contacted them and have also done so when making my monthly payment. Also various other threats.

Just to reiterate, I have never missed a monthly payment but have made lower payments. Instead of £194 I have paid £135 as I cannot afford to pay more being unemployed with only the spouse's income and my ESA. They have been notified to this effect on numerous occasions. I have only just, yesterday entered into a DMP with CCCs in the hope that I will be able to sort out our debts.

Despite a number of requests the only CCA I could get out of them was a copy of the fax sent to them by the dealer. I admit it was requested over the phone so I think that my next step may be to do it "officially" with the mandatory £1 payment enclosed.

If you look at the agreement a few posts back, it clearly shows that it a copy of a fax and nowhere on the agreement does it state it is a cash loan or a HP agreement. At the time I genuinely thought I ws signing a HP agreement as it is laid out like a HP agrement. Shouldn't there be something on the agreement stating tnhat it is signed under the CCA? It only tells you about how the act protects you.

I am not trying to get out of paying for the car, it is just that I don't want them enforcing any action against me and building up costs. The current arrears is about £480.

Your input and advice would be very appreciated on what steps I should take as letters sent to them are ignored as they neve ever respond.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Surfer01

[postggj]

i know you are getting confused but

 

if it was a hp agreement, it would have a termination section which would say how much you would need to pay back to voluntry terminate the agreement

 

your agreement does not have this

 

the agreement is a loan agreement and the car belongs to you, not the finance company

[Surfer01]

Thanks PostGGJ. As per your earlier posts, I now know it is a cash loan and I know that they cannot take back the car but they can still go to court on the arrears etc and right now I don't need additional costs added. I tried to post up the letter from photobucket but the IMG file is rejected as invalid. Any suggestions on how to make it work?

 

1) How valid is the agreement if there is no reference to it being under the CCA

2) How valid is the agreement if the agreement does not show if it is a cash loan as opposed to HP

 

If they have erred on the above it may give me soem breathing space or allowed me to continue to pay the lower amount of £135 without it going through the courts.

It is also my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that if I make a proposal to the courts of £135 and it is accepted and I keep to the agreement then there is no reason for bailiffs to come visiting.

Would I have to appear in court or is it just a paper excercise? What sort of costs would I be looking at if it went to court despite the fact I was making monthly payments?

I have other creditors who have accepted the lower payments without any fuss, but Toyota Finance are really being awkward. Maybe when CCCs contact them they will calm down a bit.

[Surfer01]

On the 07/12/2009 I sent the following request;

 

After consultation with the Citizens Advice Bureau and with reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you could send me a true signed legible copy of this credit agreement. I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974(section 77-99); I am entitled to receive a true copy of my credit agreement on request. I enclose payment of £1 that represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

Although requested previously, all I have received is a copy of the agreement that was sent by fax to your offices. This copy of a fax is not a true copy of the agreement as per the CCA 1974 and does not clearly indicate that it is an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act and neither does it clearly show what type of loan agreement it is, i.e. cash loan or H.P. an this could be in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Until this dispute over the agreement is clarified and resolved to the satisfaction of both parties, no further action should be taken against the account holder while in it is dispute.

Yours insincerely,

 

They have sent me an identical copy of the agrement as per my post #10 on this thread which clearly shows it to be a copy of a fax sent to them. Surely this is not a true copy of the original agreement.

In addition, they never sent any copies of the T & Cs along with it. I always thought that the T & Cs were part of the agreement. Should the agrement clearly indicate that it si a a Loan Agreement and also regulated by the CCA?

Previously I just asked for a copy and they sent me a copy but this time I have done it offically quoted the CCA and including the £1.

What is the time span for sending me a true copy of the agreement including the T & Cs.

Where do I go from here as they also sent this letter?

 

[sailor sam]

They have 14 days to respond to this. why did you sign your letter 'Yours INsincereley'?

 

In any event, if you are taking advice on this, show their letter to your adviser.

[Surfer01]

Thanks Sailor Sam. They already have a copy of the letter. The "Yours insincerely" was just for a smile on the forum and was not on the letter itself.

At the moment I am more concerned about getting a true copy of the agreement page 1 and page 2 as requested. They have only sent me a copy of page 1 of the fax copy that they have which does nto shwo that it is a cash loan agreement. I am wondering if the agreement complies with the CCA regs and is enforceable? If it is not enforceable then it cannot be taken to court however I will continue to pay the debt through CCCs.

[postggj]

I Think They Dont Have An Agreement, You Requested A True Copy And They Are Now In Default

Thats A Perfect Defence

 

 

They May Issue A Court Claim But No Wories

 

This Is A Loan Agreement Not A Hp

[Surfer01]

Should I write to them again or leave it bearing in mind I have started a DMP with CCCs? Perhaps only chase it up if they don't agree to the DMP?

[postggj]

Well As They Have Not Produced The Goods, They Cant Default, Charge, Sell, Demand Money Off You

 

Just Ignore Them Untill You Get A True Copy

 

Any Enforcement Is Illegal And Would Be Thrown Out Of Court

[Surfer01]

BTW if doing a cash loan, can they charge an "Acceptance Fee"? If so in this case, £189 is a bit over the top.

[buzby]

Yes - but you must be advised that it will be applied BEFORE you agree to takng on the loan. As you've gathered, it's simpply a way of 'boosting' their profit margin - so they don;t have to wait for the interest to accrue, they get an 'instant' profitability hit.

[Surfer01]

Yes - but you must be advised that it will be applied BEFORE you agree to takng on the loan. As you've gathered, it's simpply a way of 'boosting' their profit margin - so they don;t have to wait for the interest to accrue, they get an 'instant' profitability hit.

 

 

Thanks Buzby. When I signed the agreement I genuinely thought I was signing a HP agrement as it was laid out in the same format. It was only two years later when I asked for a copy of the agreement that I realised that it may be a cash loan. As you can see from the agreement on an earlier post, this is not clear.

I am beginning to think that at the time I signed a faxed "copy" of an agreement which is why they cannot produce a copy of the original agreement. This means in effect that the T & Cs would have been on a seperate sheet.

If this is the case the agreement may be unenforceable so hopefully it will get thrown out of court and I can continue toi pay them the lower amount.

[Surfer01]

I bought a car through Toyota Finance in 2008 and although I did not realise it at the time, it was a on a cash loan. Unfortunately due to being laid off we could no longer afford the full amount but paid about 3/4 of the monthly amount on a regular basis.

I then contacted CCCs and entered into a DMP with them and also notified Toyota Finance by registered mail.

 

Tonight I had someone ringing our intercom asking for me and when I asked them to identify themselves they said that they were acting on behalf of Toyota Finance. I was not advised of the visit and any way I would not have given them permission to visit my premises.

 

He was quite persistent ringing the doorbell and I then advised him that if he rang it once more I would call the police and have him done for harassment.

 

What is wrong with these morons? Don't they realise that they can't get blood out of a stone and we are already paying as much as we can via CCCs.

 

What can I do to prevent the DCA making unexpected visits? I have no idea which company he worked for as I refused to discuss the issue with him over the intercom.

 

Incidentally I have another thread about the car issue and Toyota have never been able to supply a true copy of the CCA so I am hoping that they will go down the court route as I will make them look very foolish as they never ever respond to any communication in writing.

[Bazooka Boo]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/591-dca-home-visit-if-you-receive-or-are-threatened-with-a-doorstep-visit-

 

Have a read of the above and send them the letter template.

 

Make a formal complaint to the OFT, TS via Consumer Direct and start the complaints process with Toyota finance.

[Surfer01]

I have written up the letter and tomorrow will post it recorded mail for a signature.