bailiff Andrew James Enforcement CTAX debt at my door a few weeks ago

[seanamarts]

sorry to ask this, but who is the bailiff company and I am presuming this is for Council Tax.

Why on earth do these bailiffs think they can do another levy and charge for it!!!

I would get a complaint written off to the chief executive asap and get one off to your MP as well.. Try and get your councillor involved too.

[jimbo45]

Hi ALL

I think most CAGGERS know this by now but THERE IS UTTERLY NO LAW IN ENGLAND THAT REQUIRES YOU TO DEAL WITH BAILIFF'S AT ALL FOR UNPAID COUNCIL TAX.

 

Just tell the bailiff's to go and FOXTROT OSCAR if you feel you have to get in touch with them.

 

Pay the money to the Council direct -- they are actually NOT ALLOWED TO REFUSE PAYMENT WHATEVER THEIR TELEPHONE FLUNKEYS MIGHT SAY.

 

As for charges -- the Bailiff can ASH for permitted charges of up to 42.50 for TWO visits -- and it's STILL a MOOT POINT whether YOU have to pay this, or the COUNCIL if they employed the bailiff.

 

In the case of the Council it's also a moot point if they could get this money back from you -- I'd LOVE to see this issue tested in Court.

 

For tax collection different arrangements apply than for "Normal" debt collection. The Council CAN add on charges for a Court Summons / Liability order but I'm not sure whether ANY other charges are allowed - except in the case of if they actually go through with Bankruptcy proceedings -- almost never likely to happen for typical Council Tax debts.

 

I thing we should have a new motto here

 

"A CAGGER A DAY CHASED A BAILIFF AWAY".

 

Cheers

jimbo

[hallowitch]

sorry to ask this, but who is the bailiff company and I am presuming this is for Council Tax.

Why on earth do these bailiffs think they can do another levy and charge for it!!!

I would get a complaint written off to the chief executive asap and get one off to your MP as well.. Try and get your councillor involved too.

 

previous thread regarding this

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?200261-please-i-realy-need-some-help-as-soon-as-pos&p=2779806&highlight=#post2779806

[outlawla]

I think there is something in what Jimbo is saying. There seems to be no indication that the private bailiff (unlawfully collecting for council's) issue is going to be addressed by the government. The police, councils and the legal system will always side with the bailiffs and cover for them.

 

The way I see it, there's no option but to completely refuse to deal with this ****, not even speak to them on the phone, let alone through the letter box.

 

Even if they do have a legal standing, if everyone concerned refused the bailiffs entry and ignored completely their threatening letters, the courts would not be able to cater for the sheer volume of cases.

 

These following details are from a CIPFA document of council tax collection statistics for 2007 - 2008.

 

Number of cases referred to bailiff to levy distress.

 

1,333,206 (England only)

 

If these numbers are typical, I can't see the courts having the capacity to prosecute this volume.

Edited September 10, 2010 by outlawla

[jimbo45]

Hi there

Bailiff's collecting for unpaid Council Tax HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO POWERS AND I MEAN ZERO POWERS to forceably enter a property.

 

NO ADMITTANCE -- NO LEVY -- END OF STORY.

 

The MORE people that know this the more chance we have of getting the whole stinking rotten mess removed from **** like these and back into SENSIBLE LEGAL GROUND.

 

I'm not saying avoid your Council Tax -- what I am saying is DON'T EVER EVER EVER PAY the Bailiff.

 

THE LAW DOES NOT REQUIRE IT.

 

All the law requires is that the Council Tax IS paid. It's up to YOU and the COUNCIL how that is accomplished -- you DO NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH ITS 3RD PARTY COLLECTION AGENTS.

 

Actually the Police WILL side with the property owner in these cases and NOT the Bailiff since this is a CIVIL dispute and unless the Bailiff is carrying papers from a Court allowing forceable entry the police will request that the Bailiff leaves if they are still hanging around your property and behaving threateningly.

 

I've coloured and marked in Bold part of this post because it cannot be stressed often enough that for Council Tax collection Bailiff's actually don't have ANY power at all -- only by brute force and thuggery can these guys operate at all.

 

Cheers

jimbo

Edited September 10, 2010 by jimbo45

[outlawla]

Originally Posted by jimbo45

Actually the Police WILL side with the property owner in these cases and NOT the Bailiff since this is a CIVIL dispute and unless the Bailiff is carrying papers from a Court allowing forceable entry the police will request that the Bailiff leaves if they are still hanging around your property and behaving threateningly.

 

When referring to the police siding with the bailiff, what I realy meant was that the police refuse to prosecute the bailiff firms/council for fraud and attempted fraud.

Edited September 11, 2010 by outlawla

[tomtubby]

You need to read the STICKY that I posted concerning this very same matter. The bailiff company MUST remove all charges associated with this INVALID LEVY and replace it with a fee of £24.50 for "attending to levy (where no levy was made).

Which company is this?

 

Everyone really MUST make FORMAL COMPLAINTS to the their relevant local authority about this practice.

[tottys]

thanks for the help all tomtubby the bailiff is xxx have read the thread you said about wonder how they can justify leveing on a car worth £4000 for a £300 bill (but dont forget the car aint mine so it dont matter) but just goes to show they do do it...

Edited December 22, 2010 by IdaInFife
name removed

[Tingy]

yes the levy is invalid

 

i think its about time to fork out £10 for a subject access request to the bailiff company

 

and subject access request to the council most councils don't charge for this

 

can you tell me whats on the notice of seizure as in

 

outstanding council tax

levy fee

 

Your council charges! £10 to The Pavillions - lady by the name of (edited out as not allowed to mention council employees names). Sent SAR (again) today to AJ, Think xxx may be wearing nappies to work from now on for when I phone her. If you want a copy of my SAR just let me know!

Edited December 22, 2010 by Tingy
Asked to by site team - named council employee - didn't realise I shouldn't!

[str8talkinbailiff]

How confusing this must be for the threader, alot of the information you are getting is correct but alot is also rubbish !

All money owed that a Certificated Bailiff collects has a warrant connected to it (you can check out if the bailiff is certificated on the HMCS site free and easy) ,and is enforceable by civil law. Bailiff is a very loosely used word that is not governed by law.

So a debt collector/Bailiff cannot enter or force entry, but a Certificated Bailiff can. This does depend on the warrant and circumstances, each and every type of court debt have different charges, fees, times to enforce, levy etc etc and all of this gets mixed up with people reading one post on hear then matching it with another case.

You have so much conflicting information on here.

Just make sure you have the correct info before pushing on with your complaints.

I tell you this because I am a Certificated Bailiff and when you see letters of complaint that have no relevence to the case in hand they are just disreguarded without reply. If it makes sense and is all correct it will be dealt with in the proper way.

[seanamarts]

You forgot to mention that a certificated bailiff cannot force entry with regards to collecting council tax and parking(decriminalised) fines or any other civil debts unless ordered otherwise, which is a rare occurrence. Lets get it correct shall we

[Guest carlos999]

he doesnt say that he can - he is just highlighting the fact that entry/fees etc are different depending on the warrant, your comment is an example of advice readers are reading then inferring incorrectly which in turn is causing problems. It is about time xomeone, bailiff or not, has highlighted this fact. It appears to me there are to many living room lawyers on this site giving out not incorrect but differnt case advice! Thamkyou to the bailiff poster for this.

 

for example, unpaid nndr that has been taking to county court then raised to the high court for a hceo to enforce, subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

[seanamarts]

carlos999 said:

he doesnt say that he can - he is just highlighting the fact that entry/fees etc are different depending on the warrant, your comment is an example of advice readers are reading then inferring incorrectly which in turn is causing problems. It is about time xomeone, bailiff or not, has highlighted this fact. It appears to me there are to many living room lawyers on this site giving out not incorrect but differnt case advice! Thamkyou to the bailiff poster for this.

Oh dear not another one

well yes in fact he actually said he can and I quote "So a debt collector/Bailiff cannot enter or force entry, but a Certificated Bailiff can. "

Please do point out where I gave the wrong information as it appears you didnt, please also point out where and what is causing problems. You seem to such an expert on this matter please enlighten us with your wisdom.

 

carlos999 said:

for example, unpaid nndr that has been taking to county court then raised to the high court for a hceo to enforce, subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

[Tingy]

Hello Mr Bailiffman,

 

Two posts running I find myself faced with your ridiculous drivel. I'll go through your post and as you're clearly the expert who does this for a living, perhaps you can educate us in the error of our ways. You're quick enough to tell us to do it properly, so the least you can do as you clearly have time on your hands to post on this site is to give us the information to save us having to go out and find it. Afterall this site is about helping people. I've put my commments in red purely to differentiate them from yours, so please do not read anything else into the fact that they're in red.

 

How confusing this must be for the threader, alot of the information you are getting is correct but alot is also rubbish ! Please give direct quotations of the bit / bits you believe to be rubbish in relation to this particular case.

All money owed that a Certificated Bailiff collects has a warrant connected to it (you can check out if the bailiff is certificated on the HMCS site free and easy) ,and is enforceable by civil law. Bailiff is a very loosely used word that is not governed by law.

So a debt collector/Bailiff cannot enter or force entry, but a Certificated Bailiff can. Interesting and in my opinion misleading. I was under the impression that only a bailiff from the Collector of Taxes (Inland Revenue) can get a warrant to force entry, but this is very rare. All other bailiffs have a right of peaceful entry only. This does depend on the warrant and circumstances, each and every type of court debt have different charges, fees, times to enforce, levy etc etc and all of this gets mixed up with people reading one post on hear then matching it with another case. Agreed, but your initial statement makes it sound like you can just walk into anyone's house. It is rare for you to be granted a warrant for forced entry. If you think there are any mistakes whatsoever regarding the fees referred to in this case, please point them out, along with the relevant piece of law to substantiate your claim.

You have so much conflicting information on here. Really? What conflicting information is that then? "So much" indicates a lot of it, so again please kindly give quotations of the conflicting information.

Just make sure you have the correct info before pushing on with your complaints. Well I don't think the original poster has much to worry about from information given here. If you do, perhaps again you'd be good enough to let us know what is incorrect.

I tell you this because I am a Certificated Bailiff and when you see letters of complaint that have no relevence to the case in hand they are just disreguarded without reply. If it makes sense and is all correct it will be dealt with in the proper way. I have no doubt this is true - it tends to be in any job. However, you may be a very good bailiff which is great. If you are, and work within the law doing a job that has to be done, then I wish there were more of you. Do not underestimate the remainder of your "profession" though - many act unlawfully.

 

Back to black now I'm not differentiating me for you. Please give stright answers to the following questions regarding the above thread:

 

1. Was the levy on the hire car legal?

 

2. Is it lawful and reasonable to ask for a screenshot of your personal data?

 

3. If the answer to the above is yes, can you think of any reason why the company would not want to comply with a perfectly reasonable request? If so, what is it?

 

4. In the circumstances above, is a letter fee of £80.00 lawful?

 

5. Is the walking possession fee lawful?

 

6. If you have answered positively to questions 4 or 5 please point out the relevant legislation to reinforce your answer (a vague reference to an act will not suffice, act, section, sub-section, part a,b,c or whatever) - you get my drift. Something tangible we can look up please.

 

7. Where in the case above does the law say the original poster has to have any dealings with you whatsoever as a third party? (Again please refer to legislation if you think it does say this somewhere).

 

8. In the above case, could you, as a certificated bailiff, force entry into this person's home as things stand at the moment? If you feel you could, please give the reference again).

 

I look forward with great interest to your answers to the above.

 

Tingy.

 

 

carlos999 said:

for example, unpaid nndr that has been taking to county court then raised to the high court for a hceo to enforce, subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

 

Hello Carlos,

 

Regarding posts 20 and 21 let's not muddy the waters by giving quotations for powers about taxation that do not relate to council tax. As asked of the bailiff himself, please point out any errors in the post above relating to the circumstances of the original poster. In fact maybe you could just respond to the questions posed in my thread above directly to him to save me typing it all out again.

[newstarter]

Totally agree seanamarts,i have found this forum both helpful and the info has been spot on,i have recouped alot of money in charges and had a debt returned to the council which was subsequently paid off,and all thanks to this forum.Of course there are are different ways to approach a situation but the advice is basically the same,you cannot get away from administration of council tax laws,and bailiff law in fact when you research,neither are really that complicated,i think one of the most important thing you regulars on this forum do is point people in the right direction to help themselves,and for that you deserve the thanks of us all.

[str8talkinbailiff]

Thanks carlos for highlighting what I was trying to say I could not have put it any better!

 

In

 

Thanks carlos couldnt of put it any better mysel,f just trying to highlight every case hase different laws of distress

 

Keep posting this in the wrong place sorry!

But thanks carlos you highlighted exactly what I was trying to say very well and that is all I am trying to say!

[fork-it]

It appears to me there are to many living room lawyers on this site giving out not incorrect but differnt case advice!

 

for example, unpaid nndr that has been taking to county court then raised to the high court for a hceo to enforce, subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

 

I dont consider myself a "living room Lawyer" but you have made a significant factual error in your advice.

 

NNDR has never been enforced in the county court, not has it ever been collectged by an HCEO.

 

The Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Local Lists) Regulations 1989 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1058/part/III/made

[ploddertom]

for example, unpaid nndr that has been taking to county court then raised to the high court for a hceo to enforce, subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

 

The biggest load of sh1t I have heard on here for a long time. Maybe you should have started off by saying "Once upon a time ..." and signed it Enid Blyton.

 

PT

[fork-it]

subsquently means that a hceo can force entry to commercial premises! An example where tax debt can be enforced differently!

 

HCEO's cannot commit breaking and entering, only a Certificated bailiff collecting NNDR can if he is at a business premises. However, he cannot remove any goods in the debtors absence otherwise the bailiff and the authority become jointly liable for replacing them - with brand new if the equivalent like-for-like replacements goods cannot be readily sourced.

 

Khazanchi & Anor v Faircharm Investments Ltd & Ors [1998] EWCA Civ 471 : On 17 March 1998 Lord Justice Morritt in the High Court ruled that bailiffs having a Walking Possessions Agreement cannot remove anything whilst the debtor is absent unless it is pre-arranged by appointment and with an Order signed by a Judge. The Judge also said in his conclusion,

 

However it should be noted that in cases such as these there may be a sanction pursuant to Section 1 of the Criminal Damage Act l971. In other cases the provisions of Section 6 of the Criminal Law Act may apply also.

 

http://vlex.co.uk/vid/ur-judge-cox-52584219

[Tingy]

And I note, despite popping in briefly to say thanks (which he found somewhat difficult!) has answered not one of my questions all legitimately asked after his posting which can only lead one to believe he actually cannot back up what he claims with fact and legal reference. It's easy on the internet to have a pop at someone you don't know and are unlikely to meet. It is bad manners not to reply to that person. It is ignorant to allege you have knowledge then not share it when challenged. It is idiotic and dangerous to post total and utter carp on this site. Choose which of the above (you can tick more than one box - maybe even all!) apply to you.

[str8talkinbailiff]

1.If this car was a hire car then it is clearly not legal no!

If as in 90% of cases I deal with the debtor is trying to flannel the bailiff then he can seize to assertain.

 

2. It is perfectly legal yes.

 

3. I do not know the company and cannot answer on their behalf either.

 

4. The fee's are arranged between the relevent parties for parking, council tax is set in stone reguarding visits, van fee's may vary depending on the company, levy's are a % of the debt.

 

5. If the person in question didn't sign the walker no its not legal. But a bailiff can levy on the vehicle still if it is owned by him/her without getting a walker signed.

 

6. I will pass on question 6 as its all a hyperthetical due to my responce on 4 and 5.

 

7. Well if I levy on his vehicle or remove his vehicle he has no choice but to deal with me as his goods are now in my sole possesion, he either needs prove its not his car or for me to prove it is and he has been "flipping logbooks,changing insurance details etc"

 

8. No not into his home but the warrant can still be executed due to him leaving goods lying around in the street.

 

Hope this helps shed some light as I know its a mine feild. We as bailiffs, human beings, make mistakes and wrong judgements, most of the time letting very bad offenders go as they have lots of insight into our job. If you know the system its a farce you can get away with murder and most of them do.

[Tingy]

Some key questions nicely sidestepped typically bailiff style! Anything other than Council Tax has nothing to do with this thread! Other questions I suspect you know the true answers but won't admit to the practices that many bailiff companies use.

 

Thanks for your response and for showing exactly what you are!

[hallowitch]

4. The fee's are arranged between the relevent parties for parking, no they are not

 

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=traffic&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=4&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=852540&ActiveTextDocId=852540&filesize=7942

[fork-it]

1.If this car was a hire car then it is clearly not legal no!

If as in 90% of cases I deal with the debtor is trying to flannel the bailiff then he can seize to assertain.

 

2. It is perfectly legal yes.

 

3. I do not know the company and cannot answer on their behalf either.

 

4. The fee's are arranged between the relevent parties for parking, council tax is set in stone reguarding visits, van fee's may vary depending on the company, levy's are a % of the debt.

 

5. If the person in question didn't sign the walker no its not legal. But a bailiff can levy on the vehicle still if it is owned by him/her without getting a walker signed.

 

6. I will pass on question 6 as its all a hyperthetical due to my responce on 4 and 5.

 

7. Well if I levy on his vehicle or remove his vehicle he has no choice but to deal with me as his goods are now in my sole possesion, he either needs prove its not his car or for me to prove it is and he has been "flipping logbooks,changing insurance details etc"

 

8. No not into his home but the warrant can still be executed due to him leaving goods lying around in the street.

 

 

Heres my 2p

 

1. No - because bailiffs can only levy on the debtors goods. If the bailiff chooses to levy a rental car then the bailiff is the one that has a problem when he gets the bill from the rental company for x-weeks rental plus replacement cost of the vehicle. He might also be personally liable under Section 12 of the Theft Act 1968. No levy fee is due let alone £120. See section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

2. Yes and yes, but little point in asking for it. A breakdown of fees is not personal data as it is defined under Sections 1/2 of the Data protection Act 1998, therefore no fee is due. If a fee for providing a breakdown of his costs is requested by the bailiff, then the debtor can construe the bailiff is unable or unwilling to show it is reasonable costs - See Cullighan Vs.Drakes Group and the costs may be disregarded by the debtor. If you dont want a bailiff handling your personal data, then serve notice under Section 10 of the Act.

 

3. You only need a breakdown of fees if a bailiff is claiming costs from you, otherwise the law sets the statutory bailiffs fees due. Different for each type of debt.

 

4. No, the maximum letter fee for a parking ticket case is £11.20, all other debts its NIL.

 

5. Yes provided the agreement is agreed and signed thereto by both parties and the fee is £12 (depending on the debt).

 

6. Not sure of the debt, different regulations apply.

 

7. An authority has a right to contract out the collection of tax and tickets to a bailiff company, but the duty of the taxpayer is only to the authority. (as the legislation currently stands)

 

8. No, but if he is certificated and has permission from a magistrate he has immunity from criminal prosecution if he causes damage to a property. This is very rare (HMRC, Magistrate court fines and NNDR only). Never known in Council and parking ticket cases. Contrary to popular belief, HCEO's cannot lawfully commit breaking and entering and there is no procedure for applying to a court for permission for an HCEO to break into any building.

[Tingy]

Well, well, well ... It seems as though our bailiff friend doesn't actually know his own job that well doesn't it. Now there's a surprise!