Why is no one claiming the contractual rate of interest???

[Glenn UK]

£1.00 in Jan 1900 at 28.7% returns

 

£541,141,130,113.05

 

Oh if only there wasnt a limitations act and laches!

 

Glenn

 

Edit i should add thats to todays date rofl

[Guest bong]

glenn!! shame on you - the limitations act and laches ARE NOT a defence we recognise. ok?

[Glenn UK]

LOL I humbly appologise

 

Now can you lot stop hijacking this most useful and important thread!!

 

Glenn

[Guest bong]

ok

[markj]

I am trying to use one of Vamp's / Bill's Google spreadsheets. I want to work with it offline so I exported it (numerous times) into XLS format. Excel spreadsheet opens up but everytime then says there is an error and closes down. Anyone any idea how to export into Excel without this happening? Many thanks.

[bill-k]

I am trying to use one of Vamp's / Bill's Google spreadsheets. I want to work with it offline so I exported it (numerous times) into XLS format. Excel spreadsheet opens up but everytime then says there is an error and closes down. Anyone any idea how to export into Excel without this happening? Many thanks.

Markj - the Google spreadies are designed to be worked on in the Google area. You can save completed spreadies by exporting, but they do not export as "skeleton" spreadies, I'm afraid. I have exported & re-constituted spready #5 and #16 so far, but that is all. I hope to export more, later, but it takes time and intelligence and I have precious little of one, and zilch of t'other !!

 

If you can use #5 or #16, they're here:-

 

http://www.cagmembers.go2.to/

 

HTH

[Mindzai]

Bill - when you get a chance would you please update my sheet to 1.9. Ta

[bill-k]

Bill - when you get a chance would you please update my sheet to 1.9. Ta

Of course - will do. Is it OK there, BTW ? Apologies also for speling - limited control of facility !!

[Delboy01]

Mindsai that is still an .xls file and I think I only have MS Works, any suggestions?

 

And Bill yours are .xls files too??

[Memnoch]

Quick question, has anyone discovered any caselaw relating to mutuality and reciprocity ?

[Mindzai]

Try this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-514236.html

 

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has anything else.

[lucid]

Mindsai that is still an .xls file and I think I only have MS Works, any suggestions?

 

Hi Delboy,

 

The sheet hasn't been tested in MS Works but it does work in Open Office now - which can be downloaded for free from OpenOffice.org: Home

 

Lucid

[Delboy01]

Done it and that is working fine Ta

[OldBear]

First off, call me a*se! Let me explain...

 

My thread ----> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/58899-oldbear-versus-natwest.html

 

I've misunderstood the claiming Interest thing. I have sent away my prelim letter today and I left out the bit about claiming any Interest as I have misread about only being able to claim it at Court stage. I thought it meant all interest, not just the S69. :-x

 

Only after reading this thread do I realise that the Interest talked about in the Prelim Letter refers to Interest charged on my charges. Have I got that right? If so, do I need to send another letter after calculating said Interest (i.e. start again), or can I send Natwest an addendum to my original letter of claim? or, if they don't settle immediately, can I add it at the LBA stage?

 

This is to Mindzai and Bill-k.

 

This spreadsheet is super, but I need a couple of pointers.

 

First, I assume I can only add to the spreadsheet the interest for the months when I have had a charge, is that correct?

 

Second, and I hope this makes sense.

 

My Natwest statements tell me when my interest is charged for, but actually charge it to my account a month later. e.g.

 

I'm told on 11/9/2001 that I will be charged £3.66 interest on 28/9/2001

Interest covers dates 6/8/2001 - 2/9/2001

Interest charged on 28/9/2001 - £3.66

 

My balance @ 2/9/2001 (last date interest is applied to) is 151.67OD (overdrawn)

My balance @ 11/9/2001 (date I'm informed) is 603.30OD

My balance @ 28/9/2001 (date it's debited) is 447.38OD

 

My question is... which figures and dates do I use in this excellent spreadsheet?

 

Hope this all makes sense. Your patience and assistance is greatly appreciated.

 

OB

[Mindzai]

First, I assume I can only add to the spreadsheet the interest for the months when I have had a charge, is that correct?

 

No. You add all interest you are charged starting from the date of your first charge. Even if you got charges a year ago and not since, you will still add the 12 months of interest charges. The spreadsheet will workout for you how much of this interest you are paying on the charge.

 

My Natwest statements tell me when my interest is charged for, but actually charge it to my account a month later. e.g.

 

I'm told on 11/9/2001 that I will be charged £3.66 interest on 28/11/2001

Interest covers dates 6/8/2001 - 2/9/2001

Interest charged on 28/9/2001 - £3.66

 

My balance @ 2/9/2001 (last date interest is applied to) is 151.67OD (overdrawn)

My balance @ 11/9/2001 (date I'm informed) is 603.30OD

My balance @ 28/11/2001 (date it's debited) is 447.38OD

 

My question is... which figures and dates do I use in this excellent spreadsheet?

 

You use the date the interest was actually taken from your account, not the date you were informed of it.

[OldBear]

Thanks, Mindzai, much obliged for the swift answer. That leaves me even more confused then.

 

The interest is taken out on the last day of every month, the same day my salary went in so I always have a positive balance, so the charge calculated is always £0.00. Surely that can't be right. :-x

 

Anyone answer my first Q. about how to add it to my claim?

 

OB

[bill-k]

OB - the spready automatically adds the contractual interest for you, and it is calculated on each and every penalty charge you enter in. So all you have to do for that is to enter each charge amount, date & description, along with the bank's current annual interest rate (either authorised/ unauthorised borrowing rate). The spready calc's the contractual interest for you.

 

Now, the interest that the bank charged you, is in the further columns to the right, and as Mindzai says, you put that in for every month since the first penalty charge you are claiming for, and the spready will work out how much of that you can claim back, plus the contractual interest on that, too. You may find that you have more entries in the RH columns than in the left, so it might be better to work on that side primarily.

 

EDIT: I've just realised I don't know which spready you're using, but I think the above applies to Mindzai's as well as Vamp's.

 

HTH

[Mindzai]

I would just add the contractual interest to your LBA. At any other stage I'd say you should start again, but I send a revised claim in my LBA. I don't suppose it will cause you any problems. Just add somethig like "since my previous letter, it has come to my attention that I am entitiled to claim contractual interest blah blah"

[Guest bong]

Thanks, Mindzai, much obliged for the swift answer. That leaves me even more confused then.

 

The interest is taken out on the last day of every month, the same day my salary went in so I always have a positive balance, so the charge calculated is always £0.00. Surely that can't be right. :-x

 

Anyone answer my first Q. about how to add it to my claim?

 

OB

 

don't want to get in your way here (Bill, Mindzai) just thought I could help with this bit. if you had a positive balance on the date the interest charges are applied you can work out your average negative balance for the month and insert that figure instead. you would have to add up your balance every day and divide by the number of days that month.

[markj]

Bill, Mindzai et al

 

Please excuse my ignorance in trying to work out the spreadsheets! The 8% Statutory interest spready is simple enough, but when it comes to claiming contractual interest (which I believe is a strong legal argument) I don't understand the spreadsheets.

 

I think there are legal grounds for 2 arguments.

 

1. Simple reciprocity ie when the bank breached contract and charged me £30 it must pay the same unauthorised rate that would be payable under the contract if I breached the terms of the contract ie exceeded my limit

 

2. Liquidated damages. What did the bank's breach actually cost me? After all this is the basis of our attack on the banks (they are charging more than what they have lost) To work out exactly what I have lost I need to know what rate of interest was applied to each charge and for how long. When I am in credit the bank might even be paying me interest! So my actual loss at that point is my lost bank interest. If I am within my overdraft limit the cost of the ban's breach of contract is the authorised overdraft rate, and for the periods of time I am over my o/d limit, I should claim from the bank at the unauthorised o/d rate.

 

Now this number 2 scenario MIGHT be the one finally favoured by the courts ie to give the claimant liquidated damages, BUT the spreadsheet required to work it out would need a very sophisticated user of spreadsheets! You would have to enter bank balance per period, overdraft limit per period, any interest on credit balances, authorised and unauthorised overdraft rates so that the actual interest charged on £30 here and there could be accurately assessed. Is this feasible? If this is not preactcable, maybe a court would recognise this and accept unauthorised o/d rate interest on the whole lot?

 

It would seem unfair for someone like myself permanently overdrawn who has been paying at least 16% on all the charges (componded daily!) to have to settle for the Court Statutory rate of 8%.

 

It will be very interesting when these issues are finally settled in the High Court (could even go higher!)

 

If someone could make a spreadsheet to do what is described in 2 above, I would certainly be submitting this as my claim, as then reciprocity of contract would not have to be established (one less obstacle) although I am sure that the legal grounds for reciprocity are sound, but a court would presumably have to decide this?

[OldBear]

Bill, Mindzai and Bong,

 

To all 3 of you, my thanks; all your answers are a real help.

 

The left hand side of the spreadsheet, I had no probs at all with; it was the right side that was giving me aggro. I'll try it again with bong's suggestion.

 

My only concern re: amending my original claim at the LBA stage is, that I notice in the NatWest forum, that this week Natwest have been settling after the Prelim Letter. While my claim for charges only at £599 being settled without a fight would be great, getting the Contractual Interest (shows as £586 in the spready) would be lovely as well. Damn, I'm getting as greedy as they are.

 

OB

[Guest bong]

oldbear I'd say the sooner you get your LBA out the better in that case. Once its gone, you won't have to accept an offer based on the prelim figures.

[TideTurner]

I have a recurring nightmare that someone, somewhere, will find a load of stuff in their gran's attic, and claim max contractual on one of those "lost" accounts. The bank collapses like Baring's and the rest of us get zilch. :o

 

In this respect, I think time is still possibly of the essence !!!

 

I have the same nightmare Bill, only mine is about the banks incurring so many judgements against them, they fold and set up as A N Other and shed their obligations.

[bill-k]

Bong - thanks for that. Vamp recommends that one enters the average O/D balance for the month each time. It will probably be sufficient to works this out for a few reprresentative sample months and use that as the approx. amount each month. Or even just take a rough - but reasonable - guess for each month.

 

Tide - yeah, that's another possibility. I think we might all then have to become lay Forensic Accountants !!! :o

[bill-k]

Markj - This is not my strong point, and is better explained by Glenn & Bong, but I think you may have misunderstood the principles. The banks charged us £30 for breach of contract. The charge itself isn't a breach of said contract, but it is unlawful as it is not representative of the true cost to the bank of our breach.

 

The reciprocity is where we reclaim those unlawful charges, as if they were money "borrowed" from us without our authority (or the law's !!). As such, we treat this as "unauthorised borrowing" and, as parties to the same contract, we charge the banks the unauthorised borrowing rate of interest that they would charge us under that contract. The mutuality and reciprocity is what both the bank and we are entitled to as parties to the contract. Under this principle we claim contractual interest on those charges "borrowed" from us under that contract, but without our authority.

 

That is my understanding of contractual, after reading up on it, so I really hope I haven't got it wrong !!!

 

Anybody ?? :o