why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[MandM]

Hi DD. Phoned mum earlier she said Oh I was going to get the shredder out and have a clear out.

 

Needless to say I screamed down the phone Nooooooooo!

 

She is going to leave them for me.

 

Will let you know what I unearth.

 

Mrs M

[pawnbrokers]

beware opening pandoras box - pb

[newbloke]

most people have over looked this very important part of the act.

1. sec 78 requests a copy of the executed agreement.

2. sec 189 describes an executed agreement as a document signed on behalf of both parties embodying the terms of a regulated agreement.

3. once an agreement has been varied it becomes a modified agreement.

4. copy document regs si 1983/1557 do not apply to sec 78 or 85 where an agreement has been varied

5. therefore where an agreement has been varied(modified) they have to supply the original signed agreement under sec 78 and 85, the proof of this lies in 1983/1557 sec 11(g), and the proof modifying agreements are required lies in 1983/1553.

hence sec 78 stipulating THE executed agreement, NOT varied agreement, there is only ever 1 executed agreement, and that is the first one you sign, all the rest are modified, the creditors failure to modify makes their agreements unenforceable under sec 85 and also in breach of contract.

people who receive applications under sec 78 have clearly never signed an agreement as applications are signed with respect to part 4 of the act, where the creditor is seeking business and is stipulated by sec 51, ie the creditor has to receive a signed application before a credit token can be issued. these applications should be followed by antecedent negotiations(credit checks) and upon passing these an agreement then sent compliant with sec 60 and signed in respect to part 5 of the act "entry into agreement"

[angel_1]

nothing i'm afraid- but if you have a truecall then that's 90% of the battle won- it will take them months if not years to realise that your phone is not actually ringing at your end!!

 

hey diddydicky, well for me at least a year lol

 

i love watching it glow up when someone is attempting to get through, and cant:D:D:D

 

 

have a fun day all angel x

[Bigdebtor]

newbloke

 

So are you saying that if these steps are not all followed to the letter the agreement is unenforceable? If so, does this mean if we turn up at court with OUR copy NOT SIGNED by the creditor the judge must declare it unenforceable? What is to stop him just allowing the creditor to sign it tehrne and then?

 

This is VERY important as many many agreements we have are not signed by the creditor. We typically keep our copy (unsigned) and they keep the other copy - which was only signed by us.

 

What if we produce our copy - with no signatures - but they produce their copy - with two signatures - albeit they only signed it on the court steps?

 

BD

[newbloke]

a creditor has to have the original signed agreement compliant with si 1983/1553 if they are persuing you. if you are persuing them then the onus is on you to prove no such agreement was signed. 1983/1557 sec 11g stipulates that copy doc regs do not apply to an agreement that has been modified, it also states that where an agreement has been modified, the earlier agreement must be supplied under sec 78 and 85, they cannot enforce until they do.the oft introduced default charges of £12 in 2006, so if your agreement is pre 2006 then your original default charges are different to this, therefore by charging £12 they are in breach of contract and any default registered that includes these is unlawful under the data protection act 1998.this also applies to interest hikes and changes to credit limits. hope this helps

[foolishgirl]

If so, does this mean if we turn up at court with OUR copy NOT SIGNED by the creditor the judge must declare it unenforceable? What is to stop him just allowing the creditor to sign it tehrne and then?

 

Absolutely nothing!!

 

It is not unenforceable, it is merely not executed properly.

 

Read this link to get a true picture:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

[Billywhiz]

Received strange response from my cca request from rbs today

 

"We return your letter, as attached, which we are unable to action.

 

Unfortunately we do not hold your signature on record, please can you take your passport or driving licence into your branch for them to forward to us at Credit Management Services.

 

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. We look forward to hearing from you shortly"

 

 

Personally I think I'd be mad to provide them with my signature. Does anyone else have any cooments?

[CBR600F]

hey diddydicky, well for me at least a year lol

 

i love watching it glow up when someone is attempting to get through, and cant:D:D:D

 

 

have a fun day all angel x

Ever since we got into problems we have had Caller ID.

 

May be not as good as truecall but every so often I do like them to listen to the washing machine, Dish washer or maybe just the radio:D

 

Sometimes I forget and they have held the line open for two+ hours, bad for them but also bad for me we have parents in their mid 70s.........

 

But seriously, does truecall log the time/date number of the caller?

[CBR600F]

Billywhiz,

I am sure you should tell them to take a very long hike!

 

They have your name and address - that is surely all they need to prove who is requiring the information??????????????

[MandM]

Ever since we got into problems we have had Caller ID.

 

May be not as good as truecall but every so often I do like them to listen to the washing machine, Dish washer or maybe just the radio:D

 

Sometimes I forget and they have held the line open for two+ hours, bad for them but also bad for me we have parents in their mid 70s.........

 

But seriously, does truecall log the time/date number of the caller?

 

have had a good look into Truecall and if I recall correctly you can retrieve your call logs (in and out) using your PC. We're still using caller ID too btw. It's only funds (lack of) that has stopped us getting one.

 

Have a read>>>> trueCall - your nuisance call blocker

 

M

[CBR600F]

have had a good look into Truecall and if I recall correctly you can retrieve your call logs (in and out) using your PC. We're still using caller ID too btw. It's only funds (lack of) that has stopped us getting one.

 

Have a read>>>> trueCall - your nuisance call blocker

 

M

I will have a look but I'm in the same situation. need to clear clear 1500 mortgage arears first.........

[Billywhiz]

thanks CBR. Not only do they have it, they have shared it with 3 credit reference agencies and 4 DCA's. All collection activity has been stopped for 3 months so far because the last DCA (Robinson Way) couldn't get rbs to send them a copy of the cca either. I don't know what to do though. I don't want them to "find" a reconstituted agreement, but I do want to reclaim the associated ppi payments

[diddydicky]

Ever since we got into problems we have had Caller ID.

 

May be not as good as truecall but every so often I do like them to listen to the washing machine, Dish washer or maybe just the radio:D

 

Sometimes I forget and they have held the line open for two+ hours, bad for them but also bad for me we have parents in their mid 70s.........

 

But seriously, does truecall log the time/date number of the caller?

 

yes it does, and you can access it on your computer, it also can record the conversation

 

in this respect, say you are 10 mins into a conversation and you suddenly wish you had recorded it- you simply hit the red button and it will record the entire conversation right from the start- including the 10 mins you missed (it recovers it from its buffers)

 

best normally to hit the record button whilst the phone is still ringing so that they do not get wind of the recording- that way you get much more interesting admissions

[CBR600F]

The only other question I have is whether you actually want to speak to these ***** in the first place?

 

From the mail I have had they get increasing desperate (DCAs) to come to an *arrangement*

 

Actually I am laughing at the moment about this as Capital 1's DCAs have returned my account to them - unpaid obviously:D

 

And particularly as it was C1 who caused our very much more serious problems in the first place!

[vint1954]

Received strange response from my cca request from rbs today

 

"We return your letter, as attached, which we are unable to action.

 

Unfortunately we do not hold your signature on record, please can you take your passport or driving licence into your branch for them to forward to us at Credit Management Services.

 

Thank you for your assistance in this matter. We look forward to hearing from you shortly"

 

 

Personally I think I'd be mad to provide them with my signature. Does anyone else have any cooments?

If they have been communicating with you at that address with sensitive letters and statements, then they have no reason to suspect your identity now.

 

Write back and tell them so and ask if they have been sending out statements and letters when they are not certain that you live at that address. ICO would be pleased to hear that.

 

Give them a further 7 days to comply in your letter, then go to to the OFT.

 

This is unreasonable.

 

On the up side, if they do not have a copy of your signature, then they cannot have an agreement.

[Having_A_Knightmare]

One thing i have done with DC calls is get a sim card put it in an old mobile phone and give the DC the number. Answer it a few times then they will stop calling the house phone. After a while put it on silent and let them leave messages for ever

 

If they call the house phone tell them you have moved away and give them the mobile number saying this is the contact you have for them!!

 

HAK

[Dotty50]

Tut tut HAK! :D

[diddydicky]

One thing i have done with DC calls is get a sim card put it in an old mobile phone and give the DC the number. Answer it a few times then they will stop calling the house phone. After a while put it on silent and let them leave messages for ever

 

If they call the house phone tell them you have moved away and give them the mobile number saying this is the contact you have for them!!

 

HAK

 

all fine up to the point of telling the lie that you have moved away- if this is presented to court as evidence of you trying to avoid the debt it won't do you any good

[Billywhiz]

Hi all, could someone please look at the last post in my thread in the bank action forum "Taking rbs to court"? It's a letter I'm sending back to rbs and I don't want to drop myself in the doo doo:p

[foolishgirl]

Billywhiz's thread for those who have time to look in:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/251980-taking-rbs-court.html

[diddydicky]

mind you- if they are confirming that they dont have a copy of your signature on record then they are admitting that they dont have a signed credit agreement, since if they did- they would have a record of your signature

 

Dear Sirs,

 

i note that you state that you do not have a copy of my signature on record

 

yes you do - it should be on the credit agreement i requested from you- if indeed such an agreement exists

 

Kindly confirm that you do have a credit agreement with my signature on it

[CBR600F]

diddydicky

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2870265.html

So is it best not to answer the calls?

Edited April 9, 2010 by CBR600F
Added link

[diddydicky]

you should NEVER talk to your creditors or dca's on the phone write and tell them that all communication must be in writing in order to keep an accurate audit trail of all that is said and done

 

get yourself a truecall or ignore the calls

[MadAboutIT]

can I ask for clarification on CPR 31.22 (1)

 

If I request for the agreement under 31.16 I must I have started proceedings?

 

Subsequent use of disclosed documents

 

31.22

 

(1) A party to whom a document has been disclosed may use the document only for the purpose of the proceedings in which it is disclosed, except where –

(a) the document has been read to or by the court, or referred to, at a hearing which has been held in public;

 

(b) the court gives permission; or

 

© the party who disclosed the document and the person to whom the document belongs agree.

 

 

(2) The court may make an order restricting or prohibiting the use of a document which has been disclosed, even where the document has been read to or by the court, or referred to, at a hearing which has been held in public.

 

(3) An application for such an order may be made –

(a) by a party; or

 

(b) by any person to whom the document belongs.