why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[diddydicky]

no

[CBR600F]

diddydicky,

 

Thx,

 

That's what we do, ignore the calls, sometimes I let them listen to the radio, washing mc or just silence:D

 

Had a couple that held the line open for a couple of hours - but I mustn't do that - mums(73) has just had an op.....

 

Anyway I justed wanted to hear this from someone else:D

 

Mind you we had to buy a cheap Beko washing MC and its very very quiet compared with the 13year old Hover, which was well, shacking the house down and would have cost more to repair than the new one cost!

 

Oh BTW this was money that should had gone to pay mortgage arrears:cry:

[MadAboutIT]

thanks DD for the response. Can I ask someone have a very quick look at my thread here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/255094-rbs-cca-correct.html

 

Just want to know if I should use CPR instead of continuing along the CCA 77/78 route, reading this thread has made it clear in the OP that it is actually a waste of time continuing down the route I have.

 

appreciate any responses on my thread in advance

[Having_A_Knightmare]

all fine up to the point of telling the lie that you have moved away- if this is presented to court as evidence of you trying to avoid the debt it won't do you any good

 

I think the Court would understand that you are not avoiding the debt, all you want is a little bit of peace!!!

[diddydicky]

thanks DD for the response. Can I ask someone have a very quick look at my thread here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/255094-rbs-cca-correct.html

 

Just want to know if I should use CPR instead of continuing along the CCA 77/78 route, reading this thread has made it clear in the OP that it is actually a waste of time continuing down the route I have.

 

appreciate any responses on my thread in advance

 

i think you need to read up on a lot more threads and posts before going down the CPR31.16 route-

[diddydicky]

I think the Court would understand that you are not avoiding the debt, all you want is a little bit of peace!!!

 

with respect- if the court is alerted to such a lie- and is shown by the other side to be so- then the only thing the court will understand is that you are a liar and that the weight that the court gives to any other evidence you give may be regarded with that in mind

 

in other words- bad move!!

[MadAboutIT]

DD - thanks for your response, with all respect, I have read so much I have information overload. Am I to understand that the CPR is to be requested when a creditor is taking me to court? OR when I am trying to claim against whatever credit establishment for illegal charges?

 

Sorry for my non understanding, hence my post above requesting whether proceedings need to have started. I merely want a copy of the true signed agreement to see whether I should even contemplate taking any action.

[CBR600F]

I believe the answer is yes after court action has started.

[robertemlyn09]

Hi both,

 

Might be a stupid question but is it right that a DCA, bank, CC etc have to provide a true copy under a CCA or SAR? IT seems crazy that when these requests are made, they can provide copies without info that can make the debt unenforceable!

I've recently had a copy of a loan agreement sent under a CCA request which is missing my signature, not quite sure which way to handle it now.

[vint1954]

DD - thanks for your response, with all respect, I have read so much I have information overload. Am I to understand that the CPR is to be requested when a creditor is taking me to court? OR when I am trying to claim against whatever credit establishment for illegal charges?

 

Sorry for my non understanding, hence my post above requesting whether proceedings need to have started. I merely want a copy of the true signed agreement to see whether I should even contemplate taking any action.

CPR 31.14, 31.15 and 18 are used once court action has been instigated.

 

CPR 31.16 can be used pre court action, if you have been threatened with court action, to request a copy of your agreement or any other relevant document. However, beware of taking your creditor to court to get a copy of the agreement under s78.

 

Have a good read here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/240186-dissecting-manchester-test-case-110.html#post2874984

[vint1954]

Hi both,

 

Might be a stupid question but is it right that a DCA, bank, CC etc have to provide a true copy under a CCA or SAR? IT seems crazy that when these requests are made, they can provide copies without info that can make the debt unenforceable!

I've recently had a copy of a loan agreement sent under a CCA request which is missing my signature, not quite sure which way to handle it now.

The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.

[Desperate Daniella]

There is a thread called Very Urgent Help Can those of you who are much brainier than me please go there and see if you can help?

 

The Halifax didn't defend a bank charges claim and the OP got almost £8,000 awarded. The Halifax have just gone to court and got this judgment set aside as Halifax say they can now defend, and the OP has been re-ordered to repay that money - which they can't.

 

It's appalling. I'm sure they'd appreciate any input.

 

DD

[Dotty50]

DD, that link goes to the main forum page

[MandM]

There is a thread called Very Urgent Help Can those of you who are much brainier than me please go there and see if you can help?

 

The Halifax didn't defend a bank charges claim and the OP got almost £8,000 awarded. The Halifax have just gone to court and got this judgment set aside as Halifax say they can now defend, and the OP has been re-ordered to repay that money - which they can't.

 

It's appalling. I'm sure they'd appreciate any input.

 

DD

 

DD, that link goes to the main forum page

 

Try this one >>>>> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/251309-very-urgent-help.html?highlight=very+urgent+help

 

M

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry everyone.

 

Do please have a look. They have been totally shaf*ed.

 

DD

[diddydicky]

Hi both,

 

Might be a stupid question but is it right that a DCA, bank, CC etc have to provide a true copy under a CCA or SAR? IT seems crazy that when these requests are made, they can provide copies without info that can make the debt unenforceable!

I've recently had a copy of a loan agreement sent under a CCA request which is missing my signature, not quite sure which way to handle it now.

 

s Subject Access Request obliges the recipient to disclose all INFORMATIOn he holds about you (NOT the actual documents upon which that information is contained)- therefore he may supply it in whatever form he wishes to use

 

hence - athough many do (out of laziness) there is no obligation for them to provide a copy of the CCA

[lexis200]

It is still worth doing a SAR for the info though. As DD says, out of laziness many do just send what you've asked for - I've only had one (bloody citi) who have taken the time to completely transcribe all the personal info on the alleged agreement to a blank table rather than send the original (or whatever it is that they hold).

[means2anend]

subbing!!!

[robertemlyn09]

So if your agreement comes with no signature which way do you go? Have they genuinely not got the true copy or they just not showing specifics?

[lexis200]

Hi robert

 

Personally I write and tell them that although it complies (only if it does of course!) it is not currently enforceable and to save everyone's time it would be better to send a copy of the original. Then I SAR them which has worked with most of them. You can also use the CPR to try and get them if you want to try it, but again this can be hit and miss what with some of the OC's saying it's not legitimate to request it this way (cap one for instance), or simply just ignoring it (bos).

 

Personally (and do bear in mind I'm a bit of a wuss with witholding payments and like to be 99.9% certain they have nothing) I CCA them, remind them/tell them it's not what I want, SAR them, remind them/tell them it's not what I want. If after this they still seem to be hiding behind words in the Act and won't give you a straight answer I am much happier to assume they don't have anything, or that if they do it's pants. If they threaten court and have not sent anything of worth I use the CPR (which for me has not got me anywhere)

 

The short answer though is that unless they turn around and say 'we do not have your agreement' or alternatively send you a bona fide copy of the original you can not be sure they have not got a copy.

 

This is why it's so very important to be aware of all the problems involved with taking them on before you make any decision as to how to proceed. It's a very personal choice - some people feel what I do is overkill and that once the 12+2 is up you should stop paying, but frankly it's my debt, my credit file and my risk of ending up in court so if I'm not as confident about it as I can be I am going to be one very stressed bunny.

[robertemlyn09]

Yes Lexis,

 

Thank you so much for your info, its good to hear off someone who know's a bit about it. I've found a reminder letter which, like you mentioned, tells the bank its not what I want. The letter grants the bank to another 21 days to produce the True copy before I consider the account closed (OMG I'm getting twitchy thinking about it).

Will keep you posted ontheir response.

Thanks again

[bustthematrix]

Hi robert

 

Personally I write and tell them that although it complies (only if it does of course!) it is not currently enforceable and to save everyone's time it would be better to send a copy of the original. Then I SAR them which has worked with most of them. You can also use the CPR to try and get them if you want to try it, but again this can be hit and miss what with some of the OC's saying it's not legitimate to request it this way (cap one for instance), or simply just ignoring it (bos).

 

Personally (and do bear in mind I'm a bit of a wuss with witholding payments and like to be 99.9% certain they have nothing) I CCA them, remind them/tell them it's not what I want, SAR them, remind them/tell them it's not what I want. If after this they still seem to be hiding behind words in the Act and won't give you a straight answer I am much happier to assume they don't have anything, or that if they do it's pants. If they threaten court and have not sent anything of worth I use the CPR (which for me has not got me anywhere)

 

The short answer though is that unless they turn around and say 'we do not have your agreement' or alternatively send you a bona fide copy of the original you can not be sure they have not got a copy.

 

This is why it's so very important to be aware of all the problems involved with taking them on before you make any decision as to how to proceed. It's a very personal choice - some people feel what I do is overkill and that once the 12+2 is up you should stop paying, but frankly it's my debt, my credit file and my risk of ending up in court so if I'm not as confident about it as I can be I am going to be one very stressed bunny.

Lexis, personally I like your approach and as it is quite robust. The important thing is that you obviously understand the ramifications of each action you are taking. Your willingness and ability to keep paying is sensible though many do not have the option to keep on paying until there is clear default from the Lender.

[lexis200]

Lexis, personally I like your approach and as it is quite robust. The important thing is that you obviously understand the ramifications of each action you are taking. Your willingness and ability to keep paying is sensible though many do not have the option to keep on paying until there is clear default from the Lender.

 

Thanks bustthematrix

 

You're quite right about people not having the option to keep paying. I should say I did have the luxury when I started doing CCA's of already being on payment plans, so I was paying a vastly reduced amount (something like 0.02% - albeit 0.02% of a huge amount of money:rolleyes:).

 

I do agree if you have run into money troubles and your first action is to CCA then it can be a real issue keeping up payments. That's not why I did the plans first (I didn't know about CAG when I did them), but tbh if I was going down this route again I wouldn't change the order of how I did it.

 

At least if you get a plan in place first, then if a CCA attempt goes wrong you know you have a safety net in place.

 

Of course this is assuming your creditors let you go on a plan. I was lucky and most were pretty amenable, but some people do not get a good result and it does make the whole thing much more tricky.

[lexis200]

Yes Lexis,

 

Thank you so much for your info, its good to hear off someone who know's a bit about it. I've found a reminder letter which, like you mentioned, tells the bank its not what I want. The letter grants the bank to another 21 days to produce the True copy before I consider the account closed (OMG I'm getting twitchy thinking about it).

Will keep you posted ontheir response.

Thanks again

 

Hi again

 

Good luck:) Just remember when you're getting 'twitchy' that nothing with banks happens instantly. You will always have time to respond to anything they say/do, and you can always come on here for someone to give you moral support if you get worried (which we all do at times!)

[smt37]

You can also use the CPR to try and get them if you want to try it, but again this can be hit and miss what with some of the OC's saying it's not legitimate to request it this way (cap one for instance), or simply just ignoring it (bos).

 

Whether the OC says it's legitimate or not is irrelevant. I've done this, taken Barclaycard to court and the court ordered the disclosure of the original document. At this point, they sent me the wrong agreement and since I have not paid them a penny. I could seek an injunction, but as I know they haven't got the original signed copy, then the court is [unlikely] to enforce the debt if they try to seek an enforcement order.

 

I'm taking my chances that they won't bother seeking enforcement. If they do, the judge is going to take a very dim view if the disclosure docs include the original, which is still missing prescribed terms anyway.

 

What most people appear to be doing is sending the OC/DCA the CPR disclosure request and not following up with court action. This isn't going to get you anywhere. It's like an OC/DCA saying that if you don't pay, it might take you to court. After a while, you see so many threats, they are ignored. Of course the OC/DCA is going to say it's not the right procedure. My judge disagreed!