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    • I used to have a retail outlet in London selling my husband's photography.  We also had a co-op with staff so they weren't directly employed by me, but I paid for the other overheads etc.  When my husband died, I carried on as usual for a while but then I became ill and moved quite far away so logistically was becoming very difficult.  I came to an arrangement (verbal) with one of the guys I trusted, that I would send him the images to print and sell as normal, and I wouldn't take any money, as a short term solution until I got back on my feet and worked out the best way to do things. He would pay all the  rent, insurance etc... Over a year later, not able to give things away for free anymore,  I drew up a contract as a wholesale agreement, so I would get everything printed and sent to him and I would invoice his for what he ordered. I noticed form the beginning that he wasn't ordering enough or frequently enough to be making any money, and was suspicious he was doing his own orders on the sly and ordering just enough from me to keep my happy.  I checked with my printer, which I've been with for 20 years, and he sad he wasn't getting orders for my images from anyone else. I emailed a few other printers to ask them to keep a look out for some images but I soon realised this would be impossible to police.  The only option really would be to buy a print from him and check the stamp on the back of it.  I finally managed to get hold of on the prints on sale, and sure enough, he did not order it through me.   In the contract he signed in 2022 it explicitly states that he must destroy all files I had previously sent him etc etc so e is in breach of that.  When I drew up the contract, I was careful to make sure it was legally binding, but before I let rip at him, I need to know where I stand.  The contract is here: PARTIES This WHOLESALE AGREEMENT (“Agreement”) is made effective as of 30th June, 2022, by and between ############################## The Supplier and the Client, collectively referred to as the "Parties," hereby agree to the following terms: TERMS AND CONDITIONS SALES OF GOODS The Supplier agrees to provide the following goods to the Client (“Goods”): Description of Goods ################################# Doc ID: 3d54c1d336d8780243801e0e068ebd33114b088b BOTH PARTIES AGREE: The Client purchases the Goods through the Supplier directly, and agrees to delete/destroy any previously held digital images (Goods) owned by the Supplier, and agrees not to use any such files for monetary gain, outside of this agreement, either directly or through a third party from immediate effect of this agreement. The Client purchases the other materials necessary for resale of the Goods independently of this agreement. The Client shall have exclusive rights for resale of Goods at ###########, and also with permission, as a retailer of the Goods elsewhere, provided that there is no conflict of interest between the Supplier and the Client. The Client is free to decide their own retail prices, for the Goods. The Supplier shall use #####  to provide the printed Goods on Fujifilm Crystal Archive paper, with Lustre finish, and will not use any other Printer unless #### cease to trade, without prior approval from the Client. The Supplier shall not impose restrictions on size or frequency of orders made by the Client. The prices provided by the Supplier shall not increase for a minimum of 3 years, unless the prices of the raw materials rise, in which case the client will be informed immediately. Any discounts/promotional prices of raw materials shall be passed on to the Client by the Supplier, and the invoice will show adjustments for this, as well as credit for return postage of any damaged goods. This agreement can be terminated by the Client without notice; the Supplier must give notice of no less than 90 days, unless the terms of the agreement are breached, in which case, the agreement can be terminated with immediate effect. PAYMENT Orders must be paid for upon receipt of invoice, via Bank transfer: ######### Doc ID: 3d54c1d336d8780243801e0e068ebd33114b088b DELIVERY AND INSPECTIONS All orders received by 12.00am (midnight) shall be processed by the Supplier the following working day and delivery of order shall arrive in accordance with the Royal Mail schedule, or DPD, should express delivery be requested. The Client shall be liable for the delivery charge which shall be added to the invoice. The Goods will be delivered to the address specified by the Client. The Client shall be provided with order tracking, and should any problems arise with the ordering system or the couriers (Royal Mail, DPD), the Client shall be informed without delay of any such issues. The Client will inspect the Goods and report any defects or damage to the Goods in transit as soon as possible upon receipt of Goods, and will retain damaged Goods for return to Supplier for refund/replacement. GENERAL PROVISIONS CONFIDENTIALITY The prices of the Goods and other information contained in this Agreement is confidential and will not be disclosed by either party unless with prior written consent of the other party. INDEMNIFICATION The Client indemnifies the Supplier from any claims, liabilities, and expenses made by any third party vendors or customers of the Client. GOVERNING LAW This Agreement will be governed by and construed in accordance with UK Law. ACCEPTANCE Both parties understand and accept the wholesale arrangement stipulated under this Agreement. Doc ID: 3d54c1d336d8780243801e0e068ebd33114b088b IN WITNESS WHEREOF, each of the Parties has executed this Wholesale Agreement as of the day and year set forth above.   Signed by us both electronically.   I haven't broached any of this yet, and I am looking for some advice about what action to take.  The main issue I've got is that he has still go those images.  If I terminate the contract, I will need to know that he no longer has those images and I can't think of a bulletproof way to do this. I'm thinking I might tell him I will continue with the contract but ask for a  sum in damages and say that if I find out he's still doing it down the line I will terminate the contract and sue him for damages. The damages side of things I'm not sure how it would work as he is self employed, and I'm positive he doesn't declare all of his earnings to HMRC, in order to find out how much I have lost, would the court demand to go through his tax self assessments?  I'm not sure how to proceed with this, I don't want to lose that place as an outlet as it is in a prime spot in London, which is why I let him have those images in the first place as I would have had to pull out altogether at that point.  I am regretting it somewhat now though.  Please help.
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why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement


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Roger, I have alerted the author of the letter to your query.

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Thanks CB. I am just about to start down this road with a couple of threads and would like PT's clarification before I begin as well.

The REAL Axis of evil: Banks, Credit Card Companies & Credit Reference Agencies.

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Hi, so what do you do if the court has already 'adjudged' that a debt is owing, despite saying at the hearing that you have never recieved a true signed copy of the cca? i am trying to offer the company 9.5K which is 50% of the total debt owed to them, or HSBC as they don't have any cca at all. They are ignoring it and always go for the jugular ie court and not letters requesting income etc or trying to negotiate. I recently recieved a letter from their solicitors following an oficial complaint while they are trying to do an attachment of earnings, stating that they have never had a cca but it didn't matter because there was nothing I could do!

 

The company MARLIN bought three debts from HSBC in 2007, two I have put in dispute. I wrote asking for copies of cca using the original letters of Section 71-74 of the act (i think) and have recieved no reply, do I need to send new letters now?

 

We have had some success with LARGO (PHEONIX SARL) in that the court have writen to them demanding all of the evidence. as this was a month ago i am hoping that the court will find that they are in breach.

 

We used the defence part of the summons and just qouted the act and that we were still waiting six months down the line so the court put the order in at no expense to us - worth a try.

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I don't understand that: how can the court make a judgement on the case if the pursuer has not provided proof of an enforceable document? The bank would be as well saying you owed them any figure they'd care to mention, and over several non-existent accounts as well!

 

That's not on! Anyone else heard of this?

 

Did HSBC provide anything as evidence that you or the judge were allowed to see?

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Hi, so what do you do if the court has already 'adjudged' that a debt is owing, despite saying at the hearing that you have never recieved a true signed copy of the cca? i am trying to offer the company 9.5K which is 50% of the total debt owed to them, or HSBC as they don't have any cca at all. They are ignoring it and always go for the jugular ie court and not letters requesting income etc or trying to negotiate. I recently recieved a letter from their solicitors following an oficial complaint while they are trying to do an attachment of earnings, stating that they have never had a cca but it didn't matter because there was nothing I could do!

 

The company MARLIN bought three debts from HSBC in 2007, two I have put in dispute. I wrote asking for copies of cca using the original letters of Section 71-74 of the act (i think) and have recieved no reply, do I need to send new letters now?

 

We have had some success with LARGO (PHEONIX SARL) in that the court have writen to them demanding all of the evidence. as this was a month ago i am hoping that the court will find that they are in breach.

 

We used the defence part of the summons and just qouted the act and that we were still waiting six months down the line so the court put the order in at no expense to us - worth a try.

 

alas, some judges will allow the microfiche evidence of an agreement

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It because your legal argument was weak and theirs was better.. that's how the court system works and why people use Barristers..

 

But surely the absence of an enforceable document, after being asked to present it, should be in the defendant's favour? I really don't get it.

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did you attend court?

 

what arguments/case law did you use?

 

Not yet. The little threatening letters have been flying about for months now but nothing more than that. I've told them to go ahead on the taking the accounts to court but all they do - the bank and the DCA - is waffle. The bank, however, disagrees with my clear interpretation of section 77, and that bothers me.

 

My arguments would be: lack of CCA deliverd in time allowed, lack of correct agreement on 80% of the accounts; prevarication; falsifying documents, accusation of not having received correspondence and threatening behaviour by the banks agent. AND they committed a criminal offence by not supplying some of the copiesr a month!! I'd produce every sheaf of paper I have on and from them.

 

There has to be a precedence on this, somewhere, otherwise the site team would not have set all this up. Somebody, somewhere, must have halted thier bank in its steps for not supplying a CCA at court. If there is, then why would another judge act differently?

Edited by FlyboyAgain
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My arguments would be: lack of CCA deliverd in time allowed,

 

There is no time allowed as such, they have 12+2 days to respond after which you can put the account in dispute or rather it is in dispute if they dont respond. HOWEVER, if they in the future respond with a CCA then the account is no longer in dispute for breach of s78 request.

 

There has to be a precedence on this, somewhere, otherwise the site team would not have set all this up. Somebody, somewhere, must have halted thier bank in its steps for not supplying a CCA at court. If there is, then why would another judge act differently?

 

Because judges are human and cant possibly be all the same and know all the same laws, in court its up to you and the opposition to put your cases forward, quoting the laws you think relevant and then the judge to make a decision on probabilities... there need not be a certainty in county court, laws of probability apply too.

 

S.

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This point needs to be hammered home in court using all the relevant law and case law or even better use CPR to stop it even getting to a hearing..

 

There are several ways to prevent the case getting to trial - my preferred option - where the claim is over £5k - is get an order, using CPR 31.14, that they provide the original document, if they don't comply then you get an unless order and ultimately strike them out.

 

OR - again on an over 5K case you can wait until disclosure - if they do disclose it on the list get an order to inspect the original if they don't disclose it on the list get an order for specific disclosure and then get them struck out for non compliance.

 

There are other options depending on the facts...

 

What you should NOT do is wait until you get to trial before arguing the point.

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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There is no time allowed as such, they have 12+2 days to respond after which you can put the account in dispute or rather it is in dispute if they dont respond. HOWEVER, if they in the future respond with a CCA then the account is no longer in dispute for breach of s78 request.

 

 

 

 

Because judges are human and cant possibly be all the same and know all the same laws, in court its up to you and the opposition to put your cases forward, quoting the laws you think relevant and then the judge to make a decision on probabilities... there need not be a certainty in county court, laws of probability apply too.

 

S.

 

I was under the impression that account was 'in dispute' if they supply no correct agreement? They responded over month later on most of the accounts and most of them were, to me, unenforecable.

 

In your last para, you're saying tha it would be up to me to enlighten the judge over an act of law, viz, the CCA 1974? Is that what your saying? Just need to be clear.

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Spot on...

 

CPR 31.14 has no equivalent in Scotland, so what's my option? I have a feeling that if all this sits for a while, some law will be passed (or section 78 amended) and I'll be back to square one with them leaning on me.

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Unfortunately I know nothing about Scottish Law

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Hi Flyboy,

 

To my knowledge nothing was ever requested by the court, when we had the same problem with Largo the court wrote to us to say they were requesting evidence .HSBC have either written the debt off or they haven't. When I spoke to HSBC two years ago they had no knowledge of ever selling the debt and so are still maintaining ownership!!!

 

I really just want to pay them off and start to live again now.

 

I did request that the court accepts my objections to an attachment of Earnings to allow me to sort stuff out. I have also lodged cmplaints with the credit services authority and the office of fair trading. Am considering taking out the N244 (i think) order to force them to prove their ownership.

 

Its just got really stressful now!!

 

Anyone else out there with problems with MARLIN and LARGO should start complaining the more the better.

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In your last para, you're saying tha it would be up to me to enlighten the judge over an act of law, viz, the CCA 1974? Is that what your saying? Just need to be clear.

 

In a nutshell that's how the system works

 

You enlighten the judge and back this up with case law

Live Life-Debt Free

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There are several ways to prevent the case getting to trial - my preferred option - where the claim is over £5k - is get an order, using CPR 31.14, that they provide the original document, if they don't comply then you get an unless order and ultimately strike them out.

 

OR - again on an over 5K case you can wait until disclosure - if they do disclose it on the list get an order to inspect the original if they don't disclose it on the list get an order for specific disclosure and then get them struck out for non compliance.

 

There are other options depending on the facts...

 

What you should NOT do is wait until you get to trial before arguing the point.

 

What if they are under 5K?

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I was under the impression that account was 'in dispute' if they supply no correct agreement? They responded over month later on most of the accounts and most of them were, to me, unenforecable.

 

Thats a different barrel of fish, what you actually said was "lack of CCA delivered in time allowed"

 

And I commented that if they were to reply after the 12+2 days they are not penalized for this late response, the account is no longer in the dispute of not receiving a s78 request. Whether the agreement is unenforceable or enforceable is a different argument.

 

In your last para, you're saying tha it would be up to me to enlighten the judge over an act of law, viz, the CCA 1974? Is that what your saying? Just need to be clear.

 

Yep, you cant expect a judge to remember or know every law on the statute books, both sides get to quote law and the one that delivers the best or ensures they argue the key points properly wins. Not ideal but its what we have to work with.

 

S.

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But I could use CPR 31.14 against accounst that are governed by English law, as HBoS have so kindly told me in a letter recently! Is that correct?

 

Hmm law is usually derived from the country you live in, so if you reside in scotland scottish law is what they would use to take you to court and so it should be vice versa as far as I understand it.

 

You mention CPR31.14, have you already received a claim then? cpr31.14 is to obtain documents mentioned in a statement of case or particular of claim. If you have what is the court address on the forms?

 

S.

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