Mbna 'agreement' - now threat of legal action

[underdog13]

Sorry Martin, do you mean this thread is unapproved?

Edited March 17, 2009 by underdog13
typo

[Toulose LeDebt]

Not the thread just my post which contained a disparaging remark directed at West Midlands Police Force..

[citizenB]

So are you the one with the poodle or the yappy yorkshire terrier CB?

 

Ah, now that would be telling wouldnt it:p

 

I sent a message last night to the team but not heard anything yet maybe it was because I used the red triangle instead of a PM to a site team member ?

 

Ill give it until the morning if i still hear nothing ill PM a site team member instead.

 

Regards

 

PF

 

I guess it all depends what you asked when you clicked on the red triangle, PF. Generally the reason for hitting that is to bring a particular post/important question/cry for urgent help to the attention of the site team.

[underdog13]

Not the thread just my post which contained a disparaging remark directed at West Midlands Police Force..

 

Ah, I see:) I can imagine what it may have refered to:D

[dx100uk]

Ah, now that would be telling wouldnt it:p

 

 

 

I guess it all depends what you asked when you clicked on the red triangle, PF. Generally the reason for hitting that is to bring a particular post/important question/cry for urgent help to the attention of the site team.

 

but the under the msg box it says:

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

 

dx

[citizenB]

but the under the msg box it says:

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

 

dx

 

 

This is absolutely true. However, as long as some discretion has been used in the clicking then it can be used where an urgent response is requested, especially where a person has an ongoing court case and is up against a deadline.

 

The site team are few and the requests for help are many. Sometimes a thread can get lost.

[Nomore Baloney]

I have a mbna/virgin agreement dated 2002 similair to the ones posted above recently provided after 2 months by 1st Credit. I also am sure that it is a cut and paste job, if for nothing else that any graphic designer would produce such a messy back page.

 

Anyway, reading the letter from 1st Credit, they admit that they have sent me an 'edited' version. There's no way that is a compliant version under the terms of a CCA request then.

 

Upon closer inspection of the small print in the rh column, it refers to various sections that are not present.

 

Think thats them stuffed.

 

 

 

 

Any thoughts?

Edited March 17, 2009 by Nomore Baloney
added stuff

[andygo]

hehehehe

[citizenB]

Exactly what do they mean by "edited"....

 

Under no circumstances would I send them a copy of a driving licence or passport.

 

If they are uncertain who you are, why have they been writing begging letters to you for so long ?.

[Nomore Baloney]

It looks like a template to be honest so most of it is irrelevant. But it probably does why everyone has been getting upset about their stuff from MBNA which is the same as mine.

 

If 1st credit are admitting they are editing the information required under the CCA requests, surely that is illegal?

 

Either way, it makes them all unenforcable IMHO.

[the_shadow]

Hmm Is it worth asking what exactly! they have edited out/in?

 

After all if they've provided a copy which has your signature/your address/the OC's signature... what else worth leaving out is there and therefore the editing must have been to add something?

 

Under the Important Data Protection part it states you must "read condition 13 in the terms & conditions provided" implying its a separate sheet that was sent thus enforcing the prescribed terms being in a seperate booklet as you suggest.

 

Also was your credit limit shown in the apr table? if not and if no statement declaring how to work out the apr if its not listed in the table then thats another possible avenue of unenforcability according to PT

 

From pt2537

 

let me expand slightly

 

The law as we all know requires a "A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement"

 

So on the MBNA agreement it says £1000, £3000 & £5000 yes?

 

and under each amount of credit it says the various rates , Yes?

 

So what if your credit limit isnt there?

 

What if your credit limit was £10,000? £15,000 ???

 

there is nothing within the agreement to qualify the rate of interest if your credit limit isnt set out on the agreement? with me so far?

 

So MBNA may try and argue that the full details are found in a set of terms and conditions somewhere which we dont know about blah blah blah

 

Well that angle fails at the first hurdle as the Agreement Regulations , at Reg 2(4) requires all this info to be set out as a whole and not interspersed with other info so it cannot be set out elsewhere

 

so if your credit limit was different to that stated on your agreement KERCHING:wink:

 

does that help???????????????

PmW

[the_shadow]

It looks like a template to be honest so most of it is irrelevant. But it probably does why everyone has been getting upset about their stuff from MBNA which is the same as mine.

 

If 1st credit are admitting they are editing the information required under the CCA requests, surely that is illegal?

 

Either way, it makes them all unenforcable IMHO.

 

They are allowed to remove "certain" items that pertain to security.. i.e. signature box, names/addresses... anything else is a no-no according to a "true-copy" according to the regs as far as I understand it.

[Nomore Baloney]

I think I will write back asking them what has been edited, because as it stands, the info they have supplied is in no way an enforceable agreement as it is missing several important prescribed terms.

 

Also, it is not a 'true' copy as stipulated in the '74 CCA.

[underdog13]

Good idea NB, please keep us posted on any replies you get.

[AA99]

In their first paragraph, a) they want you to verify that's your signature and they'll send a you a complete copy.

 

I would just confirm that and see what you get back as a complete copy:confused:

 

Am about to do it myself:-x

[atwozee]

I think they have edited out a couple of sensitive details on the front (but not very well!) at least that’s what they did on mine – mothers maiden name and bank details.

I wrote to them asking them to confirm if the reverse of the document is an exact copy – see what they come back with.

[Nomore Baloney]

Good idea NB, please keep us posted on any replies you get.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, but if they are sending out info similair to the stuff I have recieved, and in the small print it says 'edited' then I would guess thats its not fraudulent, but very misleading.

 

Anyway, I will keep you all posted.

 

Interestingley, in a previous letter from 1st C, they told me that I shouldn't use info or templates from unregulated forums as the info is often wrong and that I should use a solicitor or CAB.

 

Watchdog would love them. Rogue traders would love them even more.

[pompeyfaith]

Hehe Nomore,

 

And remember we shouldn't receive threats from unregulated DCA's

[Nomore Baloney]

Hehe Nomore,

 

And remember we shouldn't receive threats from unregulated DCA's

 

ooooohh. The thought never entered my mind.

 

Not.

[underdog13]

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, but if they are sending out info similair to the stuff I have recieved, and in the small print it says 'edited' then I would guess thats its not fraudulent, but very misleading.

 

Anyway, I will keep you all posted.

 

Interestingley, in a previous letter from 1st C, they told me that I shouldn't use info or templates from unregulated forums as the info is often wrong and that I should use a solicitor or CAB.

 

Watchdog would love them. Rogue traders would love them even more.

 

No worries - hi jack away;)

 

I think it is how and why they intend to mislead you; if they are attempting to make an uneneforceable agreement enforceable, then they are misleading to seek financial gain and that's fraud:D

 

Found this on another thread;

 

The Fraud Act is small as it contains only 16 sections plus 3 schedules.

 

All Theft Act deception offences are abolished to be replaced by 3 new fraud offences: fraud by misrepresentation.......fraud by failing to disclose information and fraud by abuse of position..

 

Under section 1 a person is guilty of fraud if they are in breach of any offences in sections 2,3,4.

 

Under Section 2 representation must be made dishonestly which is established under the two-stage test as set out in Rv Gosh (1982) QB 1053, 75 Cr App R 154 in which the defendant was dishonest by the standards of ordinary people

 

Subsection (1)(b) requires that the representation is made with the intention of making a gain for himself or causing a loss or risk of loss to another. Loss and gain are defined in section 5 as being money or property

 

Section 3: Fraud by failing to disclose information

18. Section 3 makes it an offence to commit fraud by failing to disclose information to another person where there is a legal duty to disclose the information. A legal duty to disclose information may include duties under oral contracts as well as written contracts. The concept of "legal duty" is explained in the Law Commission's Report on Fraud, which said at paragraphs 7.28 and 7.29:

"7.28 ..Such a duty may derive from statute (such as the provisions governing company prospectuses), from the fact that the transaction in question is one of the utmost good faith (such as a contract of insurance), from the express or implied terms of a contract, from the custom of a particular trade or market, or from the existence of a fiduciary relationship between the parties (such as that of agent and principal).

 

7.29 For this purpose there is a legal duty to disclose information not only if the defendant's failure to disclose it gives the victim a cause of action for damages, but also if the law gives the victim a right to set aside any change in his or her legal position to which he or she may consent as a result of the non-disclosure. For example, a person in a fiduciary position has a duty to disclose material information when entering into a contract with his or her beneficiary, in the sense that a failure to make such disclosure will entitle the beneficiary to rescind the contract and to reclaim any property transferred under it."

 

More specifically, section 3 states:

 

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he-

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information

(i) to make a gain for himself or another

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss

 

Gain and Loss Specified

 

5 "Gain" and "loss"

(1) The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance with this section.

 

(2) "Gain" and "loss"-

 

(a) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;

 

(b) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;

[bozalt]

Hi All

 

I am going through a similar process with first credit and received this letter, you might want to check my thread to see my reply and their subsequent response.........

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/175080-virgin-card-mbna-cca.html

 

Your views on this and the way to progress would be appreciated but at the very least it will give you some indication of 1st Credits next move.

 

Bozalt

[citizenB]

Nomore, I wonder if it would be worth you telephoning the ICO and see what they have to say about all of this.

[AA99]

Nomore, I wonder if it would be worth you telephoning the ICO and see what they have to say about all of this.

 

The ICO have just squeezed my SAR out of MBNA at last but they QUOTE are unable to look into requests made under the CCA UNQUOTE

 

They suggest I try the OFT for that

 

I think the CPR route is the only one for that:?

Edited March 18, 2009 by AA99
spelling

[Nomore Baloney]

I've sent 1st Credit a letter asking that they comply with my request as an edited response is clearly outwith the requirements of the CCA.

 

I'll see how they respond to that. My letter can hardly be a bombshell to them surely?

[sunflower99]

MBNA sent an identical copy of my alleged agreement in my SAR agreement which they had sent in response to my original CCA request implying but not actually saying that the two pages photocopied on the back and front of same page are part of the same document,They imply that my application form has a page overleaf which has prescribed terms on it,It is worrying that they still implying this on a sar request CCA as i thought a sar had to be represented more accuaratly .However a few weeks i wrote to them to ask them to confirm that the two pages were part of the same document and for an appointment to view document if it was,You would have though even if they did not write back to arrange an appointment for me to view it they would at least have the courtsey to reply and to also confim whether those two pages are attached:mad: